Author Topic: How to make it  (Read 2756 times)

Shadsu

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How to make it
« on: February 21, 2019, 03:10:55 AM »
Hi to everyone, I'm interested to make my own colloidal gold but The most info I found is for silver.
Does anyone know if there is an article to product it, like there is in this forum for silver ?
Trying to understand reading topics in this forum, I think to understand that gold need different time, different voltage and current.
1-One question I ask to myself is if it's possible use 220 volt, or if it would be the same than 24 volt.
I read a good voltage must be around 30 volt, and I red than high voltage is better because the particles will be more little...so isn't it better 220 volt? It's only to understand the theorically.
I found power supply which can work with 40-70 volt with constant current, could it be better than 50 volt ?

2-Is it a good idea use ascorbic acid to reduce the gold iones?

I also red some scientific articles which indagate about toxicity of gold, and it looks like if the toxicity of gold depends form the particle size, more little is not better.
It seems that  6 nanometers could be toxic and over this size not. Does someone of you know something about? ( I red it months ago and it's possible I don't remember very well )

Unlikely in Europe is not possible find gold wire, I can order it from USA but the shipment cost make it too costly, so I decide to use little gold lingots sold it for collection, I want use a 100 mg one.

Is the electrolysis process dependent also from how much gold is in the water.? A lingot is totally different than a wire..  how can I calculate the time, the right voltage and current ?

Thanks to everyone in advance
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 07:24:36 AM by Shadsu »

Online cfnisbet

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2019, 10:30:04 AM »
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=757.0

This is the recipe for electrolytic production of Colloidal Gold.

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2019, 08:44:45 PM »
Thanks

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 02:46:28 PM »
I red Kephra methods and I have some questions.
I decide to use elektrolysis because It's not so easy find Gold chloride where I live.

I want use the third method, the one with only maltodextrine as reducing agent.
I assume the quality and stability must be the same with every procedure.

It's not specified but I assume it must be the same than for the other two method relative to hot water. Is it so?
In this case I ask which could it be a good procedure ?
Warm the water to boiling point, then put it over the magnetic stirrer and elektrolyze and mix for 30-40 minutes?
or the water temperature must be always high and if possible  constant?
I this case I have not the possibility to maintain a constant temperature, but I can try to warm the water every 5 or 10 minutes. Could it be a good idea?

If the stability of my colloidal is not good, when I see that color is changing in purple- blue is it better don't drink it, right?

Thanks in advance


Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 01:52:09 AM »
I made an experiment, when the bubble are like you say the temperature is 90 C.
I haven't a mgneic stirrer with hot plate...and I'm trying to understand how can I make it without buy something expensive.

Unlucky I red the temperature is linked with particle size and the speediness of reduction process, and I don't know exactly but I think warm the water and then put it on the mixer without pay attention that the temperature is constant it's not a good idea.

In your opinion if change your method 3 in this way would be a good idea?

Water and salt like you have written without maltodextrine.
Elektrolyze for 30-40 minutes ( I assume I will have gold chloride and sodium hypoxide, the maximum gold chloride is possible for the quantity of salt)

Warm the water to 90 -100 c
Put inside the maltodextrine, and put the jar on the magnetic stirrer.

If the beginning temperature is 100 c , I think for at least 5 minutes will remain in the range 90-100 c without warm it anymore.
Are 5 minutes enough for the reduction with maltodextrine?

I red on Internet that if the reducing agent is strong also at room temperature will work, if not the temperature give the energy for the reduction process , and what was possible in days, thanks to temperature could it be possible in minutes.
I don't know if maltodextrine is strong as reducing agent and if five minutes with 90-100 c would be enough to complete the reduction process.

In this case it will be enough warm it again and then mix an other time.

could it work in your opinion? how can I be sure I reduction all gold chloride ?

Thanks

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2019, 02:58:00 AM »

Putting the reducing agent in at the beginning will decrease the amount of gold lost to plating on the cathode.

This is what i don't  understand.

What I understood is as follow:
1- elektrolysis with a gold anode and copper cathode in distilled water will produce gold iones which migrates to cathode because positive is attracted from negative.
2- elektrolysis with a gold anode and copper cathode in distilled water with sodium chloride will produce: 1- positive gold iones. 2- negative chlore iones  3- positive sodium iones

Positive gold iones will start to migrate to cathode, but very fastly the will meet negative chlore iones, and immediately together they will form gold chloride.
Positive Sodium iones, they remain single and all together they decide to migrate to cathode.
I think succeed also some other chemical reaction to sodium because I remember you spoke about sodium hydroxide. I remember also that you prefer use sodium chloride and not other chlore forms because of sodium, which help to avoid gold migration to cathode.

3- Maltodextrine is reducing agent,  stabilization agent and capping agent. Like sodium citrate need high temperature to have the right energy to reduce gold chloride.

I thought It works on already formed gold chloride, and later avoiding the formation of big gold cluster.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 03:10:29 AM by Shadsu »

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 01:13:52 AM »
I continue to not understand relative to gold.

Positive gold iones are attracted from cathode in water, also in salt water, because it's negatively charged.
In salt water Positive gold iones are also attracted from chlorin , because it's also negative. But these iones when are free from sodium they will be attracted from anode because it's positive charged, and sodium will be attracted from cathode because it's negative.
All positive iones start to migrate to cathode and all negative iones start to migrate to anode.

In our case our anode is the place where our gold iones start their travel, and it's the same place where chlorine finish its travel. The first negative iones our gold iones will find is chlorine.
They marry them in gold chloride and in this way they will be soluble in water.

Maltodextrine reduces gold chloride. It works not on positive gold ions, but on already married iones, on gold chloride, so that after reduction we have metallic gold not anymore positive.
If it's so it's not so much important it's inside water during electrolysis, it will do the same job also wh n the electrolysis is finished.

Relative to sodium I think I have understood how it works.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 02:45:37 AM by Shadsu »

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 01:30:58 AM »
Quote
If it's so it's not so much important it's inside water during electrolysis, it will do the same job also wh n the electrolysis is finished.
The point is for the gold ions to be reduced before it reaches the cathode.
Molecules come apart (ionize) when dissolved.
Reduction with glucose or maltodextrin happens whether the current is on or off.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2019, 06:57:43 AM »
Can I ask why maltodextrine in electrolysis method are used alone and not with sodium hydroxide?

In the reduction method I red maltodextrine are reducing agent only in alkaline hambient, and sodium hydroxide is used.


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Re: How to make it
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2019, 11:40:38 AM »
Electrolyzing sodium chloride produces sodium hydroxide.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2019, 11:28:23 PM »
Yes but at the same time if sodium build the hydroxide, the chloride remain in solution.
It maybe build something else , with hydrogen ? Hcl? and the ph will be the same.
Does succeed something else to chloride?

In a first moment we have gold chloride but after reduction we have metal gold, the negative chloride remain single at the same time if sodium react with h2o taking of it only  OH, also an hydrogen ion is single, and with chloride it could build Hcl.

A strong base like sodium hydroxide will equal with a strong acid like Hcl.
Surely it succeeds something else if the ph raise.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 11:42:11 PM by Shadsu »

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2019, 01:26:20 AM »
I was online after I wrote you trying to understand which kind of byproduct are produced electrolyzing sodium chloride, and no Hcl is produced if I have well understood.
Like you say sodium hydroxide, chlorine and sodium hypochlorite.
I red hypochlorite is strongly unstable and it will evaporites very easily.
This is maybe a reason more because heat the solution it would be important.

Unlucky the only possibility I have is boiling the water firstly with everything inside, then electrolyze it.
I made some experiment and a 500ml water in  borosilicate glass in an half hour starting from 95C decreases to 50C.
Hypochlorite 5% solution needs not so much heat to evaporate, 50C must be good enough.

In any case I thought that I can boil the solution for at least 5 minutes when I finished electrolysis, avoiding the formation of bacteria, and helping to eventually evaporate sodium hypochlorite that it's already in solution.

Is it not better use sodium carbonate as electrolyte?

We have sodium to avoid gold plating, and we haven't chloride, that if I understand well it's not really needed. Because a gold ion is in this form when it's gold chloride in solution, and when it's a lonely gold ion.
I red sodium carbonate needs very high temperature to transform carbonate ion in CO2, in our case it stays in solution reacting with the formed NaOh. At the end I think we have only sodium carbonate dissolved, plus gold and maltodextrines.

This is only my theory and I have not idea if it's really so..but if it would be so, is it not better?

I was also thinking to use, grape sugar (50% glucose 50% fructose) it must be like karo, and at the same time not citrate, but ascorbic acid. I want try these substances only because I have already everything at home. ..but I have not idea if it's really a good idea. I'm trying to find something online but no research was made with both substances.
For fructose I found one and the temperature must be at least 50%, the ph was also important.
The ph was important also for ascorbic acid, but the littlest particle size was something like 50 nm, in combination with fructose and glucose must be little like if I would use only glucose or only fructose, because they stabilyze much better the particles.

I start to look for alternatives because I can't have temperature higher  than 50 C electrolyzing an half hour, starting from 95C. Ascorbic acid needs high Ph, and fructose needs ph and at least 50 C.
Glucose I don't know .
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 01:44:50 AM by Shadsu »

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2019, 01:46:43 AM »
Gold ions moves to cathode only if they are dissolved?

Online cfnisbet

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2019, 12:09:22 PM »
Gold ions moves to cathode only if they are dissolved?
Yes, but Gold ions only move to the cathode if they are not reduced into nanoparticles on the way to the cathode. The idea of electrolysis is based (partly) on one half of an electroplating cell. The idea is to get the gold into solution, then reduce it into nanoparticles before it gets to the cathode, where it would otherwise plate out as pure gold. This is how copper is refined, only the electrodes are huge, and the process goes all the way to plate-out. We are interrupting the electroplating process by reducing the gold ions halfway across the cell, and the nanoparticles then float around in the solution that we then drink.

I hope explanation helps. All three site administrators are chemists of one degree or other (the lowest-qualified being me!) but some forum members may find a non-chemistry explanation to be easier to understand. 

Shadsu

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Re: How to make it
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 06:35:58 AM »
Thanks for answer me, the reason because I'm trying to understand and trying to change some parts is because I have not a magnetic hot plate stirrer. I can't heat, electrolyze and stir at the same moment.
I was trying to find a way to not use high temperature because the best I can do is boil the water at the beginning to 99C and in an half hour the temperature becomes 50C.

I was try to understand the importance of heating.
I know it helps in reducing, this is the reason because I was looking for other substances which works till 50C. For example I red fructose it works with 50C.
I Think it helps also the electrolyzing process, but I'm not sure.
I know it's important to avoid bacteria and this is the reason because I thought I can boil for ten minutes after electrolyze.
I was trying to understand if there are other reason to use high temperatures, like evaporating other substances, but also in this case I thought I can boil after electrolyze.
Do you think could it good work in this way ?

40 ppm- 500 ml

Boil for 5 minutes in a jar 600 ml distilled water with salt and grape sugar ( glucose and fructose 50%-50%). Raising ph, bubbling co2. ( my distilled water is old, I think is full of Co2)
The quantity I will use are the double of the recipe made with 250 ml.
240ml salt and and I have to understand how much grape sugar is 12 ml karo. I will control online.

Electrolyze for an half hour with stirring. ( this it was the time for 250 ml, have I to electrolyze the double of the time to have the same ppm with 500 ml ? )
If the time must be the double, after an half hour I will stop electrolyze, heat to 99C a second time and an other time electrolyze for an half hour.
Maybe using 700 ma could I make it only in an half hour using 500 ml?

Finally Boil for ten minutes, bringing the solution to 500 ml.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 06:51:52 AM by Shadsu »