Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Colloidal Silver Production => Topic started by: kephra on October 30, 2014, 04:15:45 PM

Title: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 30, 2014, 04:15:45 PM
I have always had excellent results with colloidal silver that I reduced with Cinn Extract (crystal clear & nice color). I have struggled until just recently with sugar reduced though. It was inconsistent. Sometimes good sometimes just fair and sometimes (long time ago) almost as bad as your last pic. It wasn't until I drastically diluted the Karo & reduced hot with only a drop or 2 of dilute Karo that I started getting some consistently great results.

Rick, an excess of corn syrup does not make any difference.  It will not make your solution turbid or extra dark unless you have a lot more silver in the water than you think.

This morning, I made 1 quart of 20 ppm ionic silver, put 1/2 in each of two bottles.  I added 2 drops of dilute corn syrup to bottle A, and 20 drops to bottle B.  Both bottles heated in my microwave for 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

(http://www.cgcsforum.org/pix/SugarTest.JPG)

So, Rick you have something else wrong.  The only thing excess glucose should do is make it slightly sweet.  Perhaps your current isn't what you think, as its the silver content that makes a difference in how dark it gets. 

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Bizill on October 30, 2014, 09:52:53 PM
Thanks for this.  I was wondering just this but was afraid to ask and didn't want to further experiment just yet.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on October 30, 2014, 10:17:05 PM
Hmmm, that is strange. Different results than I would have had. Next batch I make I will do the same thing & take pics.

Both A & B are very nice looking, but if I look very closely it seems that A might be a little more crystal clear than B ?   Or it could just be the angle.

My setup uses a 10 mA regulator. My last batch (2.5 L) ran @ 9.8 mA for 75 minutes so should be between 19 - 19.5 PPM. I get very little plate out on cathode. I have 3 multi-meters  and I switch them around occasionally to double-check them. The better of the 3 meters is the one I usually keep in series to measure mA. (The other 2 are Harbor Freight cheap ones but they all 3 read about the same) I use one of those to watch the voltage.

Will try to attach a pic I just took of the above mentioned batch.
I did my wine glass test on this batch to make sure it was fully reduced.

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on October 30, 2014, 11:03:04 PM
Just splitting hairs here but 75 minutes, 9.8ma, 2500ml is 19.6PPM.

I agree with Kephra.  Its not the corn syrup unless there's something horribly wrong with the bottle of it you have but that stuff keeps easily 10 years (I had one that got lost in the back of the pantry go DARK on me - like a dark beer color and yeah, I tossed it but it had to be back there 15 years, easy, maybe longer).

Its not your run time nor your calculations as they all look dead on.

The only other two parameters are the amount of water (which I'm sure you measured accurately) and the amount of electrolyte.

Water PH varies (yeah, even distilled and maybe over a 1-2PH range too).  If you don't have enough electrolyte in it where your PH is low and you come up under 7PH at the end of the run, the sugar really can't do its reduction job properly.  The solution needs to be at least slightly alkaline for that to happen properly.

Why not try this. Next batch, once you're done making the ionic, decant off a couple hundred ml of it into a separate jar and figure out how much extra sodium carbonate electrolyte to add to bring the total up to 20 drops per liter (1M solution) equivalent and try reducing that with the prescribed amount of corn syrup.

Heat it to just hot enough you can't really touch the jar and hold it for more than  second or two and then just leave it go.  For me by this point its already well on its way to straw color and the conversion completes in a couple minutes on its own.  No real reason or need to boil it and as Kephra says, the conversion will go more slowly if you only get the solution warm where it could take a couple hours to complete where you get a tighter particle size distribution for doing so BUT lets do it in a way the conversion happens more quickly so you can see it progress.  At the temp I suggest, it should be all over in less than 5 minutes for sure.

And let us know what happens if you choose to try this.

Its going to be something simple thats wrong.  Always is.  What its rarely though, is obvious.


Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on October 30, 2014, 11:26:33 PM
I was thinking that different water pH might be the reason for differing results.

Good suggestion, I will try doing the test you mentioned next batch & report back.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 30, 2014, 11:32:20 PM
pH makes a difference in how well the glucose works, but it will not account for batches that turn out too dark.  There are only two things that make it too dark:  Higher than normal amount of silver in the water, and contaminants.

Occasionally,  I run out of colloidal silver for my dog, and I use some of my RO water which reads about 16 TDS.  The colloidal silver made with the RO water is twice as dark once reduced.  I have no idea what is in my well water, but at 16 TDS, the contaminants are on the same order of magnitude as the silver.  Only silver has a yellow plasmon resonance though, so the darkening is caused by the contaminants.  I still use it for the dog though.
 
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on October 30, 2014, 11:35:07 PM
Just splitting hairs here but 75 minutes, 9.8ma, 2500ml is 19.6PPM.


I was figuring about 0.1 -- 0.5 PPM lost to plate out.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on October 31, 2014, 01:30:42 AM
You are being careful about not "tweaking" the electrolyte balance, stirring, waiting for things to stabilize while you have the cell running, aren't you?

If thats going to take more than a couple minutes to do, you'd be best to shut the current limiter off or at least unclip one of the leads from the cell during the period you're adding electrolyte, stirring, waiting for things to settle so you get a good reading and then clipping back on and taking a voltage reading and if its not right, unclip and do it again.  If you're managing to get 10 minutes too long run time for futzing with the cell, thats an issue.  But given where you're at, though that might push you close to or over the wire a bit by a hair (maybe 23PPM?) it sure doesn't sound like enough to account for the darker color.

Try a different brand of distilled water?

And you're sure your silver anode is at least 999 purity bullion?

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on October 31, 2014, 05:05:36 AM
When I start the electrolysis I do not start timer until I get enough electrolyte to get up to about 50% of target, but that only takes a couple minutes. Then I start timer & within another couple minutes I am up to target mA so it should average out about right. After that I do not stop the count-up timer unless I unclip a lead. I can be almost certain that I am not over 20 PPM.

I used to be good about testing each new bottle of DW, but after 30 or 40 of them came up with a 000 on my TDS meter I dropped that procedure. I guess I should start doing that again though just to be certain. Meter is OK cuz my Culligan water comes up 001 or 002 and my city tap water always reads between 145 --- 155 PPM. Since my batches are usually 2.5 L or 3.0 L I use a new bottle for each batch. Use remainder of bottle for rinse water & other things.
I am very thorough when cleaning my electrolysis beaker but I usually only do that after 3 or 4 batches. Remainder of time I just rinse it with DW after use & before next use. (Do I need to thoroughly wash after each run?) I wouldn't think so. I put the IS into different beakers for reducting so electrolysis beaker & magnet are only used for that.
Probably about 95% of my batches have been same brand of DW.
Next time I go to store I think I might try a different brand of DW since it could come up 000 PPM TDS, but have a different pH.

Fire off anode to an orange glow before each run. Anode is made of Canadian Maples (.9999) & .9999 Ag wire.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: cfnisbet on October 31, 2014, 08:14:43 AM
The only thing I have seen that makes a difference with turbidity, is the pH of the DW after adding electrolyte, and then only with glucose-assisted reduction.

If there is not enough electrolyte in the solution, then when the glucose is added, the colloidal silver will go turbid. See the experiment on my blogpost:

http://blog.cgcsforum.org/?p=287 (http://blog.cgcsforum.org/?p=287)

The amount of electrolyte is far less important (except in that you need it to allow accurate calculations of Silver ppm, and also to make my 7-litre colloidal silver batches complete before I die of boredom) if heat or cinnamon are used to reduce the silver.

I add the tiniest smear of syrup, but the electrolyte needs to be as given in Kephra's recipes in the Articles section. You know you have enough electrolyte when the Constant Current hold just kicks in and the current does not significantly alter during the electrolysis run.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 31, 2014, 01:54:14 PM
The actual amount of glucose/fructose needed is very small. 
The chemical reactions involved are:
On the electrode:
Ag - e -> Ag+    (Silver is oxidized by the electrical voltage)
Ag+ + OH- --> AgOH  (Silver hydroxide created by electrolysis)
2AgOH  --> Ag2O + H2O    (Silver hydroxide decomposes to Silver Oxide.. this is ionic silver)
Adding glucose
Ag2O + C6H12O6 --> 2Ag + C5H12O5  +CO2(Free silver + sugar alcohol + carbon dioxide)

So, 1 molecule of glucose reduces 2 silver ions to silver metal.

From this, you need one molecule of sugar for every 2 silver ions.  A sugar molecule weighs 180 compared to silver which weighs 107 daltons.  So the actual amount you need is 180/107 times the weight of silver/2 in the solution. 

For 1 liter of 20 ppm silver colloid ( 20mg silver) the amount of glucose is a mere 17 milligrams.  This is less than 1 drop of Karo corn syrup.  Once this amount of glucose has reacted with the available silver, no more chemical reaction can or will occur.  The remaining glucose does nothing chemically. 

However, it is a random event which determines when the chemical reaction between the silver and glucose occurs.  Having more glucose increases the probability that a glucose molecule and a silver molecule will meet up and react in any given time period.  With more glucose, the reaction will increase in speed.  Heat also speeds up the reaction because heat increases brownian motion, and the molecules in motion are more likely to meet than if they are stationary. 

Insufficient electrolyte causes two problems.  The pH may be too low to activate the glucose.  At low pH, glucose molecules become ring structures where one end curls around to bond with the other end of the molecule.  This binds the active end making it unavailable to reduce a silver atom.  At higher pH, the ring uncoils freeing the reducing end of the molecule.

The other problem with insufficient electrolyte is the plateout on the cathode.  This makes fine 'dust' of pure silver which will not dissolve and is too large to do anything except add to the turbidity.

Too much electrolyte also poses a problem in that it may raise the pH too high.  At pH 10 the solubility of silver hydroxide drastically decreases due to the common ion effect*.  This makes it more likely for the silver hydroxide to precipitate which again increases the turbidity. 

As I have said many times, making colloidal silver is a balancing act.

* The common ion effect happens when two or more compounds have an ion in common.  This decreases the solubility of each of the compounds.  For example consider an imaginary compound AB which was a solubility of 1 gram per liter, and a second compound AC which also has a solubility of 1 grams per liter.  The common ion is 'A'.  If you try to dissolve 1 gram of AB plus 1 gram of AC in a liter of water, less than 2 grams will dissolve because of the common ion 'A'.  Each specific ion itself has a maximum solubility.

Edited to fix equations --- Thanks Rick for spotting my error.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on October 31, 2014, 03:49:52 PM
So this is starting to make perfect sense now. As I mentioned I have not had any problems with turbidity lately. The one thing that changed a while ago is that now I am doing the electrolysis at a higher mA. Since I am now @ higher mA, more electrolyte is needed to get the current up into the target range. More electrolyte = higher pH. Higher pH means glucose & fructose rings easily broken & electrons readily available for reduction.

So before when the pH was too low, I would add more & more drops of reducer. Depending on the temp, it usually took 3 to 5 minutes and all of a sudden it would all reduce at once. The result was turbidity & darker color theoretically caused by larger particle sizes, caused by how quickly the reaction happened.

So it would seem that having all the conditions (temp & pH) correct for the reduction reaction to proceed slowly would be the key to making colloidal silver with the smallest particle size possible.

This would account for why different people can get drastically different results even though they are following the same procedures. Different DW = different pH. Also explains why my earlier problems were inconsistent. (some batches of DW that started out @ lower pH.)
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 31, 2014, 04:17:15 PM
One more thing which causes excess turbidity, is a cathode that is too large.  For the process to work correctly, the voltage difference between the bulk fluid and the cathode has to exceed 2.7 volts.  This voltage is dependent on current and surface area.  If the surface area of the cathode is too large, the voltage at the cathode will drop below the amount needed to reduce sodium, and the silver will plate out even though the total voltage across the cell seems adequate.  This is the reason for not using a stainless steel vessel to make colloidal silver.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on November 02, 2014, 06:18:16 PM
OK, so I made a batch of colloidal silver last night. ( Remember I had mentioned a couple times that I have not had a turbid or dark batch in quite a while. ) So I tried to make a turbid sub-batch with 400 ml for the sake of the experiment. (replicating Kephra's experiment @ the start of this thread.) So I reduced most of the batch like normal but in the 400ml that was for the experiment I put 10 times the amount of reducer (diluted Karo). To my surprise that sub-batch turned out EXACTALLY like the rest of the batch. No turbidity & no darker color.

I was also planning to do the experiment Gene suggested by adding extra electrolyte to a sub-batch to see if it improved, but at that point there was no need since my entire batch of IS had plenty of electrolyte (high enough pH) to avoid any problems.

Conclusions:

1. The method I had developed over the months of just adding a tiny (stoichiometric  :) ) amount of diluted Karo was nothing more than a "workaround" or a band aid for the real problem of pH too low (too acidic).

2. When I raised my mA (current) a number of months ago it caused me to need more electrolyte to get up into the target range. That change inadvertently solved my real problem of pH too low to allow for proper reduction with sugars (Karo, dextrose etc.) but I didn't realize it until just now.

     2A. Apparently colloidal silver reduced with Cinnamon extract is nowhere near as "fussy" about pH since I have never had any problem with that. Makes sense since whatever molecule does the reduction with Cinn Extract is already there & ready to go to work by donating electrons. Whereas, with dextrose/fructose the rings have to be broken before they can donate an electron.

3. The "rule of thumb" that I was using for how much electrolyte to use is just fine when I am running at a higher current ( > 10 mA ) but when I was at lower mA it caused me to put less electrolyte resulting in a pH that was too low because I was only adding just enough electrolyte to get the current up into the target range.

4. The reason I was having inconsistent problems with turbidity was probably due to variations of the starting pH of the DW.

Other observations along the way: Months ago when I was at a lower pH I noticed that when I was reducing with Karo the color change would happen very slowly or not at all for 3 to 7 minutes of stirring (depending on temp & amount of reducer). Then all of a sudden it would go from almost clear to dark & turbid all at once ( about 15 sec. or less?) Almost like once it was pushed over the cliff then a chain reaction of some sort would happen. It's hard for me to picture what was happening on a molecular level. Conversely, now that I am at a higher pH the color change happens relatively slowly & smoothly. Not all at once.

Verification of above Conclusions: Next batch I will put in about half as much electrolyte as I am currently using to make the IS. Then I will reduce a 400 ml sub-batch with Karo. Then I will do Gene's experiment of adding back the rest of the electrolyte I left out to the rest of the big batch of IS. Then reduce 400 ml of that. Should have an interesting pic to post. I can almost guarantee it will not look like Kephra's pic in the first post of this thread.

In my mind it is well worth the time to investigate this matter since darker and more turbid colloidal silver indicates larger particle size. It is generally recognized that smaller particles are more effective at killing bacteria & viruses. So being able to make colloidal silver that is 20PPM & fully reduced that is crystal clear and is as light a color as possible is my goal. 
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on November 02, 2014, 06:42:30 PM
It would be best to always use the same amount of electrolyte, and adjust the current by raising/lowering the cathode in the water, and even adjusting the anode if necessary for very low currents.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: RickinWI on November 02, 2014, 07:19:17 PM
Yes, in general that is what I will be doing from now on. Except for the next batch that I will be doing for experimental purposes.  Have to make sure I haven't lost my ability to screw up a batch.  I used to be really good at it.  :)
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Ricplate on May 05, 2015, 01:09:36 PM
Good morning! is more effective after reducing agent added process to heat it up colloidal silver in the microwave? or boiling in a plate? for 3 litres I put then just 6 drops? korn syrup? thank you
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on May 05, 2015, 02:00:22 PM
Heating it up makes the conversion from ionic to metallic faster.  I heat mine up for a couple minutes in my microwave, and the conversion takes just a few minutes.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Ricplate on May 05, 2015, 02:06:21 PM
thank you Kephra! everything is working just fine ...even colloidal gold! thank you so much for all your help and knowledge
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: peri1224 on December 19, 2015, 02:26:00 PM
One observation to the reduction of the ions. I electrolyze a liter of DW, supposedly for 18 mins. for 20 ppm, at 26-30C, which is ambient temperature here. But I let it run for 23 mins. without any problems.
Then I slow boil it with the heater/stirrer (same model Kephra shows sometimes) to boiling temp. The heat alone reduces only up to a very pale yellow. After adding a drop of glucose the pale yellow turns to full 20+ ppm golden yellow color in a second, crystal clear. I always got very good results like this, with the color on the greenish side, which means small particles.
Sometimes it happened that after dropping in the glucose, the color went to orange for few seconds before returning to yellow, but on the reddish side, which means slightly bigger particles.
Will now try to "graduate" to 320 ppm with gelatin, where heat seems to be required during the electrolysis process.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Handyguy on January 14, 2016, 02:52:32 AM
My colloidal silver is starting to taste metallic. When first made, two weeks ago, there was no taste at all.
What's happening?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Art on January 14, 2016, 04:44:34 AM
Metallic taste usually means a high ionic silver content. What color is your Colloidal Silver? What and how much reducer did you use?

Art
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Handyguy on January 14, 2016, 02:33:01 PM
I followed Kephra's recipe to the letter. The solution was a medium amber but turned to  yellow.
Could this be not enough reducer?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on January 14, 2016, 03:37:27 PM
Post exactly what you did and what you used.  I have never heard of nor seen this happen.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: WayneInPHX on June 21, 2016, 06:37:40 AM
Rick, I would use Kephra's idea of using HYDRION PH paper and bring your electrolyte to 8.5 PH per his instructions:

More electrolyte = less plateout and using the recommended amount puts the pH in its optimal sweet spot of 8.5

CHECK:  2) The Making of Colloidal Silver -- Part 2 - Production Techniques
"Mix up the sodium carbonate by dissolving 1 level tablespoon in 3 ounces of water.*

Starting with 1 liter of water, add 20 drops of sodium carbonate solution.  Sodium carbonate is what you get when you bake baking soda, so you have consumed a lot of this in your life, and it is not toxic.  Mix well."

You can get the paper cheap at Amazon, search for:  Hydrion PH 4.5 - 8.5 Paper Cat#2210  It will be TONS easier to use the paper instead of a actual PH "Meter"  The meter requires cal solutions and storage wet.  A PAIN.

I admit, I am a bit psychopathic about minutiae when I get an interest in something.  I apologize ahead of time.  :P

The only thing (I) would add is to start by adding just 15 drops of solution and then 1 at a time measuring in between to ensure you actually get 8.5 PH  Your Distilled water can have a different PH in every bottle. Don't try to change the ratio or simply add  the Sodium Carbonate directly.  VERY small amounts make LARGE changes!  I worked out his ratio's. The amount of my Sodium Carbonate powder in a single drop of solution is only .003 GRAMS!!!!!  It is NOT MUCH!  It's about the amount of "dust" left on my weighing paper after I make a solution!  THAT I suspect is why he has you make it in a 3 oz solution!  It is forgiving and simple.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Frank on July 02, 2016, 11:34:27 PM
Hi,

I would like to ask a few questions relating to the color of colloidal silver, I made my first batch yesterday which came out to the same color as in the pictures in this topic which is great, but I like to be objective in my research of making colloidal silver and came across this e-book today, I'd like your opinion on it please because it seems to be from a valid source but is contradicting what is being said here, so my question is, which is the right way to make it and if this information is wrong why is it wrong? I'd like you to pay particular attention to pages 14 to 25 and especially page 24 http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids-s.pdf (http://www.silver-colloids.com/Book/SilverColloids-s.pdf)

I'd like to learn how to make it without having doubts about what I am making and this professor is putting doubts in my mind, so is there anyway you can put my mind at ease about this?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on July 02, 2016, 11:47:13 PM
Well that article is in direct disagreement with all the published science data.  For one thing, the color of colloidal silver does not come from reflected light.  It comes from absorbing light.  Particles which reflect light are indeed too large, however thats not what gives colloidal silver of the right size range its color.  Look up surface plasmon resonance and that will tell you how it actually works.  I have already explained this in the articles.

Researches qualify silver nanoparticles by the wavelength of light they absorb.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Frank on July 03, 2016, 12:24:47 AM
Ok thanks

I found this and it answered some things for me http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/nanomaterials/silver-nanoparticles.html (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/nanomaterials/silver-nanoparticles.html)

I'd like to ask you a few more questions about nanoparticles, what size is best for making colloidal silver, and, what size does your generator produce at 20ppm and also is there anyway that the particle size can be measured at home without lab equipment and such?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on July 03, 2016, 12:46:04 AM
The answers are in the Articles section.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on October 22, 2016, 08:24:55 PM
I know this an old post but as a newbie, and learning the importance of these very specific elements, could someone tell me if it's OK to add electrolyte after electrolysis if ph is low or must it be correct at the start of the run? If the effect of too high or too low affects reducing, it seems logical to me that I could check after the run and adjust to be sure the ph was ok before then adding reducer.

(Or is that too simplistic?).

I only say that as I have 500ml batch running at the moment and have only just come across all this ph stuff so didn't check prior to starting the run.

I only have a SOTA silver pulser at the moment ( til the elite turns up) and it says in the manual that it only generates 1mA.

I've calculated the run time using Kephra's calcs but as this is only a 9volt device I have no idea if the MA is correct. When I put a multimeter on the electrodes I get no reading at all for Amps or volts.

I can't therefore see if moving the cathode affects the current.

The current setup (as I understand it is:

500ml x 10 (PPM) x 0.015 / 1 (mA) = 75 mins
The SOTA device says nothing about moving the cathode so I have assumed that it is 1mA when both wires are about an inch off the bottom.

I'll test ph after the run now (which has just finished) but not sure what it should be for best results.
If it's low, then this is why I'm thinking I could add electrolyte now before reducing.

Grateful for thoughts.

Dean

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on October 22, 2016, 08:41:04 PM
Blimey!

Just checked the ph and it's 9.8.

I used 10 drops of electrolyte. (Made by the "baking the bicarbonate" method.
I then measured as acccurately as I could 12.4grams into 100ml of water.

I have to use lyons Golden Syrup as the reducer for now.
I used 2 drops (just enough diluted to "drip / drop a single drop off the spoon.
(Didn't have a second dropper bottle)

I did this same recipe last night but after reducing I had almost zero colour change.
Got it to about 148 degrees in the microwave - tested with meat thermometer)
When I sipped it this morning it had almost zero metallic taste.

Lots to learn clearly !
You guys are awesome with your approach to this.
The best resource by a country mile!

Deano
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on October 22, 2016, 09:08:52 PM
Pants!

4minutes in microwave and it's crystal clear but has zero colour change.
Perhaps 75 mins with my setup is just not enough.

The manual for the silver Pulser suggests 2 hours and should yield about 8- 10ppm.
But that is with no electrolyte.

 I have a bubbler going too.

The 75 minutes sounds right with ELEC. by comparison to their suggestion of 2 hours without
(Says he who knows nothing 😄) but I'm just looking at it thinking there's not enough silver in it!

Happy days!
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on October 22, 2016, 09:13:45 PM
A haaaaaa!!!!!!
I just finished writing the last post and looked down and it's gone
Freaking yellow !!!!!!!!!

How will I know what PPM that is? Based on info above,
Would I be correct at about 10ppm?

Oh this is so funny 🙂

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 22, 2016, 09:41:58 PM
Blimey!

Just checked the ph and it's 9.8.

I used 10 drops of electrolyte. (Made by the "baking the bicarbonate" method.
I then measured as acccurately as I could 12.4grams into 100ml of water.

I have to use lyons Golden Syrup as the reducer for now.
I used 2 drops (just enough diluted to "drip / drop a single drop off the spoon.
(Didn't have a second dropper bottle)

I did this same recipe last night but after reducing I had almost zero colour change.
Got it to about 148 degrees in the microwave - tested with meat thermometer)
When I sipped it this morning it had almost zero metallic taste.

Lots to learn clearly !
You guys are awesome with your approach to this.
The best resource by a country mile!

Deano
The correct weight of baked baking soda is 10.6 grams. 
Yes, you can add electrolyte afterward if your pH is too low.  It only has to be above 7 to activate the reducing agent, but 8.5 give more stability.  9.8 is too high.

You didn't say what your batch size is.  Usually, 20 drops per liter hits the sweet spot of about 8.5
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 22, 2016, 10:04:22 PM
20 ppm should look like Johnsons baby shampoo.  10 ppm would be a lot lighter.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on October 22, 2016, 10:27:18 PM
Ok so,
1. Your absolutely correct Kephra.
My mistake, yes, that's what I ultimately mixed at. 10.6.
I saved 12.4 ready to mix but then realised you have different weights for different products.
I did do 10.6 in the end.

2. Just started another batch and have taken stats this time.
Your reply above may mean I've buggered this one up before it's even started!

Recipe:

500ml DW (PPM 001)
Initial PH 5.7
10 drops of electrolyte
Starting PH 10.8

Think I'm going to have to add 1 drop at a time and test with each one to find
Out how many actually gets me to 8.5

Q1. Should I try to hit the ph of 8.5 before I start the run
Or Will the ph drop as the run goes on leaving me with a lower ph by run end?
Q2. If my ph is too high by run end can I somehow correct it before adding reducer ?
Q3. Does a higher ph wreck the batch in some way or does it
Just make it darker?

I'm trying to make the next batch 20ppm so I'm running it for 150minutes.
Think that's OK. Though with a single 9volt battery and no way to control current,
I'm not sure that this will be consistent. (Or unhealthy to consume in some way)

Thanks for your input Kephra. Really appreciate the helping hand.

Lastly, with a small generator like this, will I likely maintain correct particle size as I'm only aiming for 20ppm
Or am I pushing this setup and will get a bad batch as a result?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 22, 2016, 10:36:32 PM
Dean,
Quote
Q1. Should I try to hit the ph of 8.5 before I start the run
Yes, but I am wondering how you are measuring your pH.  10 drops will not produce that high of a pH.  I think your meter or test strips are wrong.  To move 1 pH, you have to use 10 times as much sodium carbonate, and you cannot be that far off.
Quote
Or Will the ph drop as the run goes on leaving me with a lower ph by run end?
The pH will stay about the same
Quote
Q2. If my ph is too high by run end can I somehow correct it before adding reducer ?
No, you cannot reduce it except by adding acid which would be a bad thing
Quote
Q3. Does a higher ph wreck the batch in some way or does it
Just make it darker?
It might make it less stable over time, but I don't think your pH is that high.  I suggest using 10 drops and forget your pH measurement.

Also, I doubt the silver pulsers calibration is correct.  Unless using a constant current generator, its extremely difficult to measure the  actual ppm of ionic silver.  The guy who made it probably stuck a TDS meter in his solution and it read 8 to 10.  TDS meters read way low on ionic silver.  So you can't accurately know your ppm.  Theoretically they should read about half, but I cannot verify that they actually do.

I think you have found that complete reduction of the silver ions takes a little time :)  This is normal, and hotter makes it go faster.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on October 22, 2016, 10:47:07 PM
Yeeeeeeees !
 It's actually gone a lovely colour but a little darker than you describe
Especially for 10ppm (or there abouts) not sure why that is.

I am using this (500ml) within a few days so not too worried about stability
For a long time. Would just be nice to know if have a "benifical batch" even if it's not
Perfect yet.

I buffered my ph meter and it was accurate at 4 & 7 then put it in the water and it hit 5.7
Then immediately added 10 drops of Electrolyte, immediately tested it again and it jumped to 10.8.
I don't even turn it off between times.

Will take your advice on this though.

All very exciting 😁
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on October 22, 2016, 11:11:47 PM
The maximum pH for a saturated solution of sodium carbonate is 10.4, so I know you pH meter is not correct.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: WayneInPHX on October 24, 2016, 09:47:32 PM
I buffered my ph meter...
The BEST way I have found to measure PH is by using:

Micro Essential Lab MF-1608 Hydrion Microfine Short Range pH Test Paper Dispenser, 6.0 - 9.5 pH

 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0045I6K20/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have a PH meter.  It is a pain in the A!  For LESS than the price of the storage and cal solutions you can get the hydrion paper.  It WORKS.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on November 24, 2016, 05:29:45 PM
Agreed.

I now have access to both so will be comparing as I go and finding the best (or at least looking for a consistent discrepancy that I could build into my digital readings
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on November 24, 2016, 05:34:54 PM
If you measure your sodium carbonate correctly, you don't need to measure you pH every time.
If you have an electrical conductivity meter, you should read about 200 us conductivity with  1 ml of 1M sodium carbonate per liter.
Even if you are off by a factor of 2 either way, it only changes the pH by .3 points.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Bobby on November 24, 2016, 05:51:20 PM
Dean,

   On the CGCS Forum's main page go to / Uses of Colliodal Metals / Colloidal Silver around the house / Colloidal Silver Nebulizer started by edwire. You will fine good information there plus links to similar uses of colloidal silver for colds, congestion, asthma, etc...  you should feel better fast.  Let us know how you do. Good luck!

Bobby

 P.S. I meant to post this to another thread.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Bobby on November 24, 2016, 05:55:24 PM
Kephra,

  Does the ppm meter you sell at the SilverTron Store measure the conductivity?

Bobby
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Dean on November 24, 2016, 06:57:20 PM
Got it Bobby, no worries.
Will take a look when I get home :-)
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on November 24, 2016, 09:18:24 PM
Kephra,

  Does the ppm meter you sell at the SilverTron Store measure the conductivity?

Bobby
Yes, it is both an EC meter and ppm meter.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: plataoplomo on December 08, 2016, 08:03:43 AM
Water PH varies

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but.......

Distilled water is acidic because it absorbs carbon from the atmosphere.  You can drive out the extra carbon by boiling at a rolling boil for 15 minutes then sealing it while still steaming in an airtight container.  Use a glass or stainless steel pot to boil in.

The PH difference between boiled and not boiled is striking.

We use mason jars.  If the jar vacuum seals when it cools, (it usually does unless your canning flat is bad), the distilled water remain alkaline, (less dissolved carbon).

I learned this while researching how to make electrolyte for large Nickel Cadmium cells used in my solar system.

Hope this helps someone.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on December 08, 2016, 12:38:24 PM
The solubility of CO2 decreases with temperature, so boiling would drive off most of it.  However, this is unnecessary when using sodium carbonate for electrolyte and its time consuming and uses up a lot of energy.

For reducing agents, there are lots of choices include, glucose, maltose, maltodextrin, cinnamon extract, other plant extracts, corn syrup (Karo), Tate & Lyles golden syrup etc.

The silver lungs guy tries to get you to buy his expensive reducing agent, but its just a carbohydrate like one of the above. 
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: WayneInPHX on February 14, 2017, 05:32:02 AM
Water PH varies
The PH difference between boiled and not boiled is striking.

The focus is: Getting the molarity of sodium carbonate in your solution correct. The MATH proves out what it will be.  Your PH measuring method whatever it may be, will NOT be as accurate.  The PH is important, sure, but if you are measuring correct amounts, measuring PH absolutely becomes irrelevant.

If I follow my own advise, Pure Distilled Water, Pure Sodium Carbonate(Anhydrous) all measured out correctly, and it comes back PH 8, or 9.3, etc, the PH measuring is in error.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: gandolf on March 08, 2017, 11:39:12 PM
Water PH varies
The PH difference between boiled and not boiled is striking.

The focus is: Getting the molarity of sodium carbonate in your solution correct. The MATH proves out what it will be.  Your PH measuring method whatever it may be, will NOT be as accurate.  The PH is important, sure, but if you are measuring correct amounts, measuring PH absolutely becomes irrelevant.

If I follow my own advise, Pure Distilled Water, Pure Sodium Carbonate(Anhydrous) all measured out correctly, and it comes back PH 8, or 9.3, etc, the PH measuring is in error.

If you really want to have fun.  Boil the distilled water under a vacuum of say 0.1 ATM (cheapest vacuum pump).  With a little time that will remove all those dissolved gases too  ;D  If you are good you can probably put the meter or calibrated probe part in the vacuum too since electronics does not care.

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: WayneInPHX on March 12, 2017, 11:28:11 PM
Water PH varies
The PH difference between boiled and not boiled is striking.

The focus is: Getting the molarity of sodium carbonate in your solution correct. The MATH proves out what it will be.  Your PH measuring method whatever it may be, will NOT be as accurate.  The PH is important, sure, but if you are measuring correct amounts, measuring PH absolutely becomes irrelevant.

If I follow my own advise, Pure Distilled Water, Pure Sodium Carbonate(Anhydrous) all measured out correctly, and it comes back PH 8, or 9.3, etc, the PH measuring is in error.

If you really want to have fun.  Boil the distilled water under a vacuum of say 0.1 ATM (cheapest vacuum pump).  With a little time that will remove all those dissolved gases too  ;D  If you are good you can probably put the meter or calibrated probe part in the vacuum too since electronics does not care.


MY game is the minutia.
Nit-picking to perfection.


The Guides will tell you how to make repeatable high quality stuff EVERY time.
MY bag is splitting the hairs to get to the minimum amount of Reducer / Stabilizer per batch that results in perfect clarity, color, stability.  I am MUCH further than just 2 months ago.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: nix2p on March 19, 2020, 12:31:07 AM

Sometimes when I forget about electrolyte mixture, This thread is reminding me how is done correctly. :-[

I wish I stumbled on it in my early days...

Another thread that concerns the purity of silver rod:
 https://www.thoughtco.com/flame-test-colors-photo-gallery-4053133 (https://www.thoughtco.com/flame-test-colors-photo-gallery-4053133)

Thanks Kep...
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: llau on March 09, 2021, 07:41:49 PM
Hi,
I have doups.

Only with the reducing ante can we avoid the batch being ionic silver, or is it necessary to add the reducing agent?
The definitive proof that it is really AGNP is that it must not taste like metal and the color must be light yellow, right?
Otherwise it is ionic silver?

Thank you!!!
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: cfnisbet on March 11, 2021, 09:12:25 PM
"The definitive proof that it is really AGNP is that it must not taste like metal and the color must be light yellow, right? Otherwise it is ionic silver?"

Correct.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 07, 2021, 03:04:46 PM
My first batch and it does not look good,
look darker than most people do i guess
add too many maltodextrin 6 times  higher
will make a new one tomorrow for 20 ppm and do it step by step by the book

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 16, 2021, 11:31:42 AM
These are 20 ppm with 15mA run for 10 minutes, 0,2 grams malto, 0,4 ml electrolyte get around 200 mS EC
Left one stirred and heated after process, The right one heated before process and stirred without heating
Why i always get darker colour compare with other people sample and also has tyndall effect
Any idea?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on August 16, 2021, 03:19:58 PM
That looks more like 50ppm.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 16, 2021, 06:02:23 PM
i just make a new batch without reducer but the colour looks pale yellow and clear,  is it possible to get pale yellow without a reducer?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on August 16, 2021, 06:22:02 PM
Yes, both heat and light will reduce silver.  Specifically blue and ultraviolet reduces silver but not red.  Fluorescent light and sunlight contain blue wavelengths. 
The silver will not be as stable because there is no stabilizer.  Also, it makes bigger particles.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 17, 2021, 01:12:09 PM
Too much reducing agent is ok
but how if too much electrolyte? i cant get conclusion or any information about it, maybe i missed it
Can anyone please explain it, thank you
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on August 18, 2021, 03:05:09 AM
Well, the first thing you'll notice if you use too much electrolyte is difficulty to near impossibility of getting the cell voltage up over 10V.

Remember, the electrolyte lowers the resistivity of the water making it easier for electrons to flow through it.  The more you use, the lower the resistance and hence, at a fixed current the cell voltage will drop lower and lower as you add more.

At least for 10ma production, I find that I can barely add 20 drops of electrolyte per liter and still be able to get the cell voltage up over 10V.

The other effect is that if you add enough to raise the PH of the water to 10PH or greater, Colloidal Silver particles will start falling out of solution.  This was documented here somewhere - actually said at 10PH+ colloids of all metals "fail".

Too little electrolyte would have the effect of raising the cell voltage for a given current as opposed to enough and also, it may not raise the PH of the water enough for the reducer to do its job properly.  The PH really needs to be around 8-8.5 for a reducing agent to function properly.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 18, 2021, 05:20:26 AM
i Add 14 drops which is calculated as 0,5 ml for 500 ml of distilled water, and the PH is 10,1
Maybe too much? maybe this is why i always get high failured rate?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on August 18, 2021, 07:54:44 AM
If your PH is that high, you have a serious problem.  Either your distilled water is noticeably alkaline already (you can test it before you add the electrolyte) which would be strange or your electrolyte is too strong (more than 1 molar).

Distilled water picks up CO2 from the air. Yes, plastic (even aluminum cans) are porous over time and CO2 migrates through them and dissolves in the water.

CO2 dissolved in water goes by another name - carbolic acid - it lowers the PH and most distilled water comes up at least slightly acidic.

Test yours.

How overly strong might your electrolyte be if its the issue?

Lets put it this way.  To move PH one point (10.1 to 9.1) requires you dilute it by an order of magnitude (a factor of TEN) meaning 1 part of 10.1PH water to 9 parts of neutral PH water.

But then too, exactly how are you testing PH?  Test strip? PH meter?  If a PH meter, have you calibrated it?

If your distilled water comes up alkaline, its either not distilled or very poorly made with something in it that shouldn't be there thats pushing up the PH.

14 drops of electrolyte using a standard eyedropper is not 0.5ml - 10 drops is.  Eyedroppers are rather standard. BUT, even with that much extra, that shouldn't push the PH up nearly that high.

There's obviously something wrong.  You need to do some testing to figure out where that high a PH is coming from, if its real and your method of measuring it isn't flawed somehow.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 18, 2021, 09:51:08 AM
Yeah  i just calibrated it yesterday, using 2 powder 6,68 and 4.01 ( not so accurate i get 6,8 and 4,1 )
my DW PH is 6,3
after that i add 7 drops  which is 0,25 ml into 500ml water and stirred it and my ph raise to 9,9

My pippet needs 70 drops for 2,5 ml or 140 drops for 5 ml, I measured it and weight it
so 140/5 = 28 drops per ml
when i need 0,25 ml i use 7 drops, supposely it need 0,5 ml which is 14 drops but i try  drops just to test and i already get 9,9

Im using sodium carbonate 21,2 gram, weight it and pour DW until i get 200 ml solution, so im thinking it should not be a problem
We dont need to follow 10,6/100ml right? we can double it to 21,2/200ml

Sodium carbonate impurity? too much acid ? I try 2 brand of sodium carbonate merck and local brand and also using baking soda arm and hammer (  for the last one baking soda i make 10.2/100ml but i still get significant jump from 6,1 to 9 just 2 drops pippet )
the baking soda heated at 200 degree for 2 hours to make sure because when i use laser thermo gun it only get maximum 160 degree celcius inside the oven, so i bake more just to be safe )

Do we need to stay in pH between 8-8,5 ? Is it cumpolsory?

Anyone please help, thank you
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on August 18, 2021, 11:25:32 PM
Yes, 10PH IS a BIG problem.

8-8.5PH is the sweet spot. At 10PH+ ALL metallic colloids start falling out of solution.

Either your PH meter is broken and the PH isn't this high or if not (chances are that its not because you tested it with a couple different buffer solutions and came up close enough to call even) you have some issue with the electrolyte.  It could still be the PH meter. You tested it with 2 standard buffer solutions but both where acidic.  You haven't tested it with an alkaline buffer solution to make sure it functions properly in the alkaline range.

It can't be (well low probability anyway) the distilled water. That PH sounds about right to me. Yeah, its supposed to be 7.0PH but the absorbed CO2 always pushes it a bit lower.

How are you weighing out the sodium carbonate?

How are you measuring the distilled water you mix it with to make the 1 molar electrolyte solution?

And yes, you can scale the amount by whatever you want, to make as much electrolyte as you want.  2x is fine as long as the ratio is maintained so 2x everything as you've done (2x the weight of sodium carbonate with enough water to make 200ml of solution).

Obviously something is wrong and needs to be figured out. Is it the test instrument (PH meter) or something else?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 19, 2021, 12:59:46 AM
im buying another ph meter now, 3 types digital type, paper strip single colour and multiple colour indicator, just to make sure

i weighted sodium carbonate using digital scale
put 21.2 grams and added dw until it reach 200 grams, i have done it with 3 different sodium carbonate even with baking soda

need to change pH meter and see how the result come
i dont think dw or electrolyte solution become a problem because based on electrical conductivity 10 drop is only about 55 ppm or 110 us
i used to test it beforr process and i always try to reach at least 200 us before started
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 19, 2021, 11:31:45 AM
I want to confirm my pH test, it definitely Digital pH meter problem
i tested using pH paper and my Dw+ sodium carbonate is not more than 9 value

From Left
1st strip DW = 6 - 6.5
2nd strip DW+Sodium Carbonate= between 8 and 9 but definitely below 9 because 9 already blue colour square on 3rd row
3rd and 4th strip 1 molar Sodium carbonate = definitely pH 12

So it confirm that my DW+Sodium carbonate is still below 9
Thanks
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on August 19, 2021, 12:48:14 PM
You should read my article about ph meters and silver.  You probably contaminated your pH meter.
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1682.0
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 19, 2021, 07:43:53 PM
yes possible, read that articles few days ago, probably contaminated, because i put it inside colloidal silver few days back
thanks
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on August 19, 2021, 09:07:47 PM
Below 9 sounds good to me.

I looked online last night to see if I could find what a 1 molar sodium carbonate solution comes up as in PH.  From a few different references, it was all 14PH +/- a little so if true, your electrolyte might be a little "weak" (not that it matters).

Perhaps Kephra could chime in on this one. I'd love to hear his opinion as to what PH correctly made 1M sodium carbonate should be.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on August 19, 2021, 11:15:01 PM
Quote
Perhaps Kephra could chime in on this one. I'd love to hear his opinion as to what PH correctly made 1M sodium carbonate should be.
The computed value for 1 ml of 1M sodium carbonate solution in 1 liter of water (1 mM) is 8.49.  This value is accurate only at 25C degrees and the water exposed to air (absorbing CO2)  Temperature influences actual pH, colder increases pH value.
The electrical conductivity is 184 uS/cm

The pH calculator is at http://www.aqion.onl/

For 1M sodium carbonate, the pH should be 10.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 20, 2021, 01:16:22 PM
i used syringe and test it 1ml equal to 1.00 gram using tap water
so i put 1 ml in 1000 ml dw and i get 248 us/cm
so either my ec meter has bad accuracy or my electrolyte solution way to high right?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 21, 2021, 09:16:28 AM
hi mr. kephra, i have been trying to look inside the forums
i want to ask what happens if we do not reduce the ionic silver and only add gelatine as capping agent, sorry maybe i missed it

thanks
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on August 21, 2021, 01:01:27 PM
You can only cap nanoparticles not atoms or ions.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on August 21, 2021, 01:33:59 PM
i used syringe and test it 1ml equal to 1.00 gram using tap water
so i put 1 ml in 1000 ml dw and i get 248 us/cm
so either my ec meter has bad accuracy or my electrolyte solution way to high right?
The only instruments you can really rely on are:
A good calibrated scale which reads to at least 0.01 grams.
A milliammeter and voltmeter.
A clock timer or stopwatch.

TDS meters are only good for testing water, but they do not actually read dissolved solids unless the substance they read is ionizing.  Not everything which dissolves ionizes, and therefore does not read on a TDS meter.  Sucrose is an example.  So your water may test as zero, but still have contaminants.

pH meters are inaccurate unless they are temperature compensated, and even then are totally inaccurate when contaminated with some metals, including silver. 

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: indocomp on August 21, 2021, 02:34:16 PM
thank you sir, some times i feel bad when i read your reply because when you mentioned it, reminding me that you already posted it somewhere in the articles and yet i failed to remember it  ;D

Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Ak Brasil on April 05, 2022, 09:30:46 PM
can i use mineral water to make colloidal silver? It's not tap water, but bottled water. Because it already has some conductivity, maybe it would dispense with the electrolyte
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: cfnisbet on April 05, 2022, 10:15:14 PM
No. You can't use mineral water, or dispense with the electrolyte.

Use distilled water and electrolyte; they are both used for a specific reason.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 05, 2022, 11:51:03 PM
Quote
can i use mineral water to make colloidal silver?
Absolutely not.  I strongly advise you to follow the formulas and methods outlined on this forum.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Ak Brasil on April 05, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
And as for the reducer, for the production of 40PPM silver I saw comments here on the blog that you should add half of the reducer at the beginning. In this case, should I heat up to add the reducer and then do the rest of the process cold, or should I keep the temperature high all the time, until the end? And how much corn syrup to make silver 20 PPM and 40 PPM? Thank you very much in advance.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 06, 2022, 01:42:28 AM
Quote
And as for the reducer, for the production of 40PPM silver I saw comments here on the blog that you should add half of the reducer at the beginning.
That is incorrect.  Add it all at the beginning,  Just because someone says something does not make it true. l  Read the Articles.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Ak Brasil on April 06, 2022, 02:57:43 AM
Master, just one more question: do I add the reducer and keep it warm throughout the process? I haven't found this answer on the blog yet.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 06, 2022, 03:43:59 AM
If you are making more than 20ppm, its best to keep the water warm.  20ppm can be made cold.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on April 08, 2022, 01:46:29 AM
Is this correct method to produce a high quality 40PPM Colloidal Silver should follow the following?

Add 20 drops of electrolyte to 1 liter of water. Heat to about 150 fahrenheit. Add 2 as Karo.

Keep the electrolysis for another 40 minutes and the colloidal silver is ready, right?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 08, 2022, 03:44:05 AM
No, you must control the current, and calculate the run time from what your constant current supply actually produces.
Read and study the Articles.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on April 08, 2022, 11:18:26 AM
oh yes, forgot to mention that I keep it at about 15 mA, lowering and raising the cathode. In this case, what I said in the abterio comment is correct? I read many, many articles here on the blog, but I was just wondering if under the conditions I mentioned we will have a production of 1 PPM per minute and if it is necessary to keep the system warm for all 40 minutes. Thank you very much teacher.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 08, 2022, 12:53:55 PM
Good on the currrent.  I would use maltodextrin as the reducing agent as it is a better stabilizer though.
Yes keep it warm.  Heat is more important at the end than at the beginning because the ppm is increasing over the process time.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on April 08, 2022, 07:00:47 PM
Perfect!
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on April 12, 2022, 05:14:02 AM
Can I make natural soaps and shampoo and add Colloidal Silver instead of water during manufacturing? Because then I would have a product based on Colloidal Silver. Soaps are glycerin based.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on April 19, 2022, 09:21:29 PM
In the production of colloidal silver 20 PPM, can I turn on the heating base after 10 minutes of production and add the reducer? Because if I do it this way, I won't need to heat everything at the end to make the reduction, nor will I need to leave the heater on during the whole process. I use 15mA, 12,2 Volta. Is correct?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 19, 2022, 09:28:39 PM
If you are making 20ppm, you don't have to heat it at all.  It will take longer to reduce, but it will be good.
I never heat 20 ppm until after the electrolysis is finished.  Heat is not required because 20 ppm does not exceed the solubility of silver oxide at room temperature.  Above 20ppm, the silver oxide will precipitate at room temperature, so heat is necessary.
If you want the reduction to go faster, you can heat it.  I normally process cold, and then microwave a liter for 4 to 6 minutes and the reduction is complete.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on April 20, 2022, 02:35:44 AM
Perfect tips!! In this case, should I add a drop of the reducer only when I take it to the microwave?

Does heating in the microwave not interfere with the quality of silver ions? It's just that we see so many people talking about not leaving colloidal silver near microwaves lol. Please master, could you guide us on this? Thank you very much in advance.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Gene on April 20, 2022, 07:07:56 AM
Where are you seeing so many people talking about not leaving Colloidal Silver near microwaves? I can't say I've ever seen this here.

Yes you can heat up IS in a microwave to reduce it to Colloidal Silver.  Its not Colloidal Silver until after its reduced.

The process of making Colloidal Silver the way we do is somewhat of an art. Its a big balancing act and there isn't one single correct answer. You have to find, based on the basic procedure, what works best for you. Heating or not and what temperature if you do, stirring, not stirring,...

Yes, there are basic things you shouldn't do and basic things you need to do but there's a range of "acceptable" which is where you get to make choices to find your own particular "sweet spot".
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on April 20, 2022, 12:36:57 PM
Perfect tips!! In this case, should I add a drop of the reducer only when I take it to the microwave?
A drop?  I use a milliliter of the diluted Karo per liter of Colloidal Silver.  Add it at the start.  For 20ppm only, its ok to add it at the end, but why, just add it at the beginning.  When using maltodextrin, I use 1/2 teaspoon of maltodextrin powder per liter.  Its just silly to try to use the exact amount from a calculator, when extra does not hurt anything, and insures complete reduction while making the reduction process faster.  Then there is the issue that you cannot be sure that the Karo, or Golden Syrup is exactly the same composition that it was last week, last month, last bottle, etc.
Quote
Does heating in the microwave not interfere with the quality of silver ions? It's just that we see so many people talking about not leaving colloidal silver near microwaves lol. Please master, could you guide us on this? Thank you very much in advance.
Absolutely not! Whoever told you that is totally ignorant of physics, chemistry, and science in general and certainly metal colloids.  I would not believe anything they said.  Microwaves do not harm Colloidal Silver, and the only effect a microwave oven has is to heat the water.

Heat is motion.  When there is no motion of the atoms (or molecules), the temperature is absolute zero.  When the atoms jiggle so violently that their electrons get thrown out of their orbitals, the atoms start to emit photons (energy) as their electrons fall back into their respective orbitals, which causes the material to glow from the emitted photons.

 A microwave is tuned to the resonant frequency of water molecules,  So makes water molecules vibrate more strongly. It is not tuned to silver nanoparticles.or silver ions.  The excited vibrating water molecules bang against the other molecules imparting more motion to them, so they get heated also.

Misinformation like microwaves harming the Colloidal Silver really pisses me off.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on May 15, 2022, 06:26:44 PM
Please, can diabetics take colloidal silver even with that much starch, by the way, glucose, as a reducer?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on May 15, 2022, 07:38:16 PM
Starch is not a reducing agent.
All carbohydrates convert first to sugar in the body.
Do you think that a couple of drops of Karo corn syrup, or even a gram of maltodextrin is going to make any significant difference to the metabolism?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on May 16, 2022, 05:15:42 PM
True, it's a pretty low amount. Thanks
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on May 22, 2022, 03:43:42 AM
Thanks
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on May 23, 2022, 03:28:08 PM
Is it okay to use Colloidal Silver to fight dandruff on your hair and scalp every day? Might have some bad reaction or silver buildup? If the answer is YES, can I use tap water to dilute it, before application, so that it spreads better in the hair? Or can tap water react with colloidal silver without the reductant?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on May 23, 2022, 03:38:35 PM
Quote
Or can tap water react with colloidal silver without the reductant?
What do you mean by 'without the reductant'?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on May 23, 2022, 07:44:13 PM
silver 20 ppm, with electrolyte only
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on May 23, 2022, 09:56:04 PM
So you mean ionic silver.  It might stain your skin, and I have never heard of using silver for dandruff. 
As a diluent, you can try tap water.  Whether it ruins you ionic silver or not depends on what is in your tap water.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on May 23, 2022, 09:58:42 PM
And if it's a colloidal silver, can it harm something or cause hair loss?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Neofizz on May 24, 2022, 04:11:01 PM
Is it okay to use Colloidal Silver to fight dandruff on your hair and scalp every day? Might have some bad reaction or silver buildup? If the answer is YES, can I use tap water to dilute it, before application, so that it spreads better in the hair? Or can tap water react with colloidal silver without the reductant?

Colloidal silver kills single celled organisms. Skin fungus is multi-celled so the colloidal silver, in theory and personal practice, will not work on them.

I have had a fair amount of success fighting my dandruff problem using a homemade borax shampoo. The first time I tried it the result looked like milk dripping off my head as the borax seems to dissolve the fungus in my scalp. Nice thing is that borax water does not sting when it gets in the eyes. Now I wash with soap first, then wash with the borax water. After a couple minutes I rinse that out and use an ACV or white vinegar rinse (to bring the skin pH back down) then rinse with water again. I would do this every couple days and it did a nice job of keeping the dandruff down. You can do internet searches for borax shampoo or check out this link.
https://sustainingourworld.com/2014/02/27/using-borax-for-clean-healthy-hair/ (https://sustainingourworld.com/2014/02/27/using-borax-for-clean-healthy-hair/)
She says to dissolve a cup of borax in a gallon of water. I can't get more than about a 1/4 cup to dissolve. Either way, you want a saturated solution where you can't dissolve any more in the water. She says to heat the water to get it to dissolve. When I do that the excess recrystallizes when it cools.

I don't know if the vinegar is really needed for skin pH or not. The pH of soap is close to the same as the borax water and we don't rinse with vinegar after washing with soap. But the vinegar rinse does make the hair soft and smooth feeling which is nice. I have a 700-800 ml bottle I put the borax into for shampooing. I can dissolve about 2 heaping tablespoons of borax into it only. That makes a saturated solution of borax which works well for shampooing. I also use the borax as a foot soak. For foot soak it's 1/4 cup borax and 1/2 cup baking soda in one gallon (or 4 liters) of hot tap water.

Later on I discovered (Dr. Ken Berry on youtube) that dandruff is caused by skin inflammation and the skin inappropriately reacting to the inflammation and that this opens the scalp up for fungal growth. Ken Berry then says the inflammation is caused by too much sugar and carbs that turn into sugar when digested. Have noticed since cutting the sugar way down that the dandruff problem isn't as bad. Still use the borax shampoo occasionally. Also found out it works great on ringworm as well, which is another type of skin fungal infection. Just use a cotton ball and dab/wipe them with the solution every day and they're gone in a week.

This is my personal experience. Your mileage may vary. Good luck getting this under control.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on June 22, 2022, 11:49:22 PM
Kephra If I add some plant to the ionic silver, can a reduction occur? So I added and the solution turned amber yellow. I would not like the reduction to occur.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on June 23, 2022, 12:08:44 AM
Kephra If I add aloe vera to the ionic silver, can a reduction occur? So I added and the solution turned amber yellow. I would not like the reduction to occur.
There are many plants and plant materials which will reduce silver.  I tested only a few of them. 
You might try adding hydrogen peroxide to your mix.  Peroxide reconverts silver to ionic silver, which is why it will clean the silver staining from glassware.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on June 23, 2022, 12:37:38 AM
What a great idea Kephra. Is 10 volume peroxide better in this case? How many drops in 1 liter?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on June 23, 2022, 01:39:21 AM
What a great idea Kephra. Is 10 volume peroxide better in this case? How many drops in 1 liter? That way we would have an ionic silver even containing aloe vera inside, right? I ask because I don't want to take the aloe vera.
i would add 1 ml peroxide at a time, with at least 10 minutes in between.  If the product loses its color, you have successfully converted the nanoparticles back to ions.  Do not be in a hurry as the reaction is slow.  It may only need 1ml (20 to 25 drops).  If successful with 1 ml, try cutting it in half the next time.
I have not tried this with aloe vera, so please let me know how it works.
10 volume (3%) is fine.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on June 23, 2022, 01:04:13 PM
Kephra, today I tested various concentrations of hydrogen peroxide and 1ml/liter resulted in no visible change in colloidal silver. To lighten it, 5ml was needed, and to be very transparent, 10ml/liter was needed. As it is only for external use, is there any problem using this concentration of hydrogen peroxide? It is worth mentioning that I did the test on only 50ml of colloidal silver, using the proportions. I will attach a photo showing how it was before and how it was after in the small measuring cup.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on June 23, 2022, 01:35:44 PM
There should be no problem.  When peroxide reacts with silver, the byproduct is simply water.  I commend you on doing the experiment on 50ml samples.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on June 23, 2022, 06:25:15 PM
I used this carbonate to make the electrolyte and produce this colloidal silver. That's right?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on June 23, 2022, 06:37:17 PM
Kephra, I found this one too. Which is better for electrolyte production?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on June 23, 2022, 10:21:14 PM
Carbonato de sodio (sodium carbonate) is the correct one.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: Kaio on June 28, 2022, 06:11:16 PM
Kephra, when we reverse the colloidal silver reduction process, using hydrogen peroxide, is there any loss of silver ions? Is the quality of ionic silver changed?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on June 28, 2022, 09:11:05 PM
Kephra, when we reverse the colloidal silver reduction process, using hydrogen peroxide, is there any loss of silver ions? Is the quality of ionic silver changed?
There will be no silver lost.  It will be converted back into silver oxide.  It may affect the aloe vera though.
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: PatrickJ on June 28, 2022, 11:00:29 PM
Will heat speed up the process of reverting back to ionic? What if the Colloidal Silver is over 20PPM? Will anything over 20PPM precipitate out?
Title: Re: How much is too much reducing agent
Post by: kephra on June 29, 2022, 12:59:07 AM
Will heat speed up the process of reverting back to ionic? What if the Colloidal Silver is over 20PPM? Will anything over 20PPM precipitate out?
Heat usually speeds up reactions, and yes if the silver ppm is above about 20, it will precipitate out.