Author Topic: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation  (Read 810 times)

Offline waboni

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20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« on: May 27, 2021, 03:54:45 AM »
Hi everybody, I hope all you guys are fine, I was experimenting with producing Ionic Silver Oxide just leaving the solution without adding reducing agent and heat. Due to I'm using a Power Supply setup, I made my time/current calculus using that great spreadsheet named "Colloidal Silver-CALCULATOR" by: “WayneInPHX”. Now I plan to try producing a more pure Silver Ionic Oxide solution by eliminating the addition of electrolyte, the problem is that the production time is calculated based in the 1M of Sodium carbonate per Liter of distilled water rule. My question is what formula may I use in order to produce 1 Liter of solution without electrolyte.

My setup is:
Anode Surface Area:    5260,32 mm
Constant Current (based in actual anode area): 81 mA (these are 20GA 1"x6" silver sheets)

1 liter beaker.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 05:02:12 AM by waboni »

Offline kephra

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2021, 01:26:49 PM »
Quote
the problem is that the production time is calculated based in the 1M of Sodium carbonate per Liter of distilled water rule. My question is what formula may I use in order to produce 1 Liter of solution without electrolyte.
Thats wrong.  Milligrams of silver is just based on current and time. You must have constant current though to accurately time your product.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline waboni

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2021, 01:50:23 PM »
Quote
the problem is that the production time is calculated based in the 1M of Sodium carbonate per Liter of distilled water rule. My question is what formula may I use in order to produce 1 Liter of solution without electrolyte.
Thats wrong.  Milligrams of silver is just based on current and time. You must have constant current though to accurately time your product.

Thank you very much for your prompt response Kephra, sorry for the misunderstanding, what I meant was that the current/time calculation in the worksheet provided by WayneInPHX, automatically makes calculations taking in consideration 1 Mole of Sodium Carbonate per liter of water.

Can you please let me know how much time is needed to produce 1L of ionic silver oxide using 81 mA constant current.

Cheers,

Waboni

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2021, 04:01:03 PM »
From this link:

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4965.msg41335#msg41335

The calculation is:-    Litres of distilled water x desired ppm of silver x 15 / milliamps on the ammeter = Minutes of runtime

The maximum ppm for Ionic Silver Oxide is 20 ppm (due to solubility). So for 1 litre of 20 ppm Ionic Silver Oxide using 81 mA constant current, the calculation is:-

1 x 20 x 15 / 81 = 300/81 = 3.7 minutes (approx 4 minutes)

Offline kephra

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2021, 05:43:56 PM »
Of course, waboni will never reach 81ma without any electrolyte, so the point is moot.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline waboni

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2021, 04:44:57 AM »
Of course, waboni will never reach 81ma without any electrolyte, so the point is moot.

Thanks cfnisbet / kephra for your responses.
Cfnisbet I believe the formula still forces the use of electrolyte, as Kephra suggest the only way to achieve that current is in an ideal water conductivity, and distilled water is not gonna provide it.

Now, based in the fact that the conductivity will keep increasing as the ions concentration on water are getting towards the desired 20 ppm of ionic silver oxide.

I found something interesting here: https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4828.0, a member did the experiment of producing ionic silver oxide without electrolyte using the Silvertron 3 device and it showed a 13 hrs producing time estimate vs about 30 min using sodium carbonate. The question here is how can this calculation be made?

Offline kephra

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2021, 12:27:36 PM »
Time calculation does not require electrolyte.  Without electrolyte, you will have very low current at first which will constantly rise if you do not have a current limiter. 

The Silvertron has a current limiter, but does not rely on it for time.  It measures the current 100 times a second and adjusts remaining time based on that current measurement and the amount of silver already released into the water.
The time calculation is accurate regardless of whether there is electrolyte or not.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline waboni

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2021, 05:06:54 PM »
Thanks Kephra, things are getting a little bit clearer at my end.

So, in my particular case, where I don't own a Silvertron (sadly) and plan to produce 20 ppm ionic silver without  electrolyte, how can I predict the real time that is going to take making this concentration.

I actually have this equipment:
>Programmable power supply (mA capable and constant current)
>Stirrer
>1 L beaker
>Glass encased stir bar
>6" x 1" fine silver sheets for anode/cathode (about 4 inches under water when producing 1 L). Separated 1 1/2 inches.






Offline Neofizz

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2021, 08:12:23 PM »
About the only way I can think of to get any accuracy on your product is to pretend you are a Silvertron and do the calculations manually. Take a current reading at the start, and continuously monitor the current for a change. When it goes up a notch you use the time it took to go up a notch and previous current to see how much (in milligrams) you have made so far. Then when it goes up a notch again you take the time it took to go from first notch to second notch along with the current before it went up a notch and calculate again then add the resulting milligrams to the running milligrams total. If you are making 1L and want 20 ppm you stop when the running total reaches 20 milligrams. In addition to all that hassle you need to do before and after weightings of the cathode and subtract the difference from your total milligrams as there will be silver plating onto the cathode during the whole process when there is no sodium present. In addition, because it's not being reduced as it's produced it needs to be done in the dark or as dim a lighting as can be managed due to light reduction. In addition, the time for the total run will be a little different from run to run due to small variables that can change such as depth of anode/cathode and temperature.

It will start out very slow. I did this once and think the current started at about a quarter of a milliamp. By the end it's an out of control rate of production due to the hydroxide build-up.

Or you could save yourself a lot of hassle and just use the sodium carbonate which is in many foods you eat regularly.



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Offline waboni

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2021, 03:49:38 PM »
About the only way I can think of to get any accuracy on your product is to pretend you are a Silvertron and do the calculations manually. Take a current reading at the start, and continuously monitor the current for a change. When it goes up a notch you use the time it took to go up a notch and previous current to see how much (in milligrams) you have made so far. Then when it goes up a notch again you take the time it took to go from first notch to second notch along with the current before it went up a notch and calculate again then add the resulting milligrams to the running milligrams total. If you are making 1L and want 20 ppm you stop when the running total reaches 20 milligrams. In addition to all that hassle you need to do before and after weightings of the cathode and subtract the difference from your total milligrams as there will be silver plating onto the cathode during the whole process when there is no sodium present. In addition, because it's not being reduced as it's produced it needs to be done in the dark or as dim a lighting as can be managed due to light reduction. In addition, the time for the total run will be a little different from run to run due to small variables that can change such as depth of anode/cathode and temperature.

It will start out very slow. I did this once and think the current started at about a quarter of a milliamp. By the end it's an out of control rate of production due to the hydroxide build-up.

Or you could save yourself a lot of hassle and just use the sodium carbonate which is in many foods you eat regularly.

Thank you very much for your process explanation.

Offline Gene

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Re: 20ppm Ionic Silver Oxide Production Time Calculation
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2021, 08:41:32 PM »
As is stated, the time calculation (Faraday's law of electrolysis) is

<liters of solution> * PPM * 15 / <current in milliamps passing through your cell>

As stated above, the equation is agnostic to electrolyte (presence or absence).

The only relationship to electrolyte is that without an electrolyte, its going to be damn tough to get even ONE milliamp through the cell.  Water is a pretty damn good insulator to the flow of electricity.

I fail to see why you'd want to produce ionic silver without using an electrolyte, not the least reason being that the electrolyte is required to "break" the normal action of the electrolysis cell (electroplating cell).

Yes, the electrolysis cell is an electroplating cell where under normal (NO electrolyte) conditions, the silver ions are pulled off the anode, go into solution and are pulled out of solution and deposited on the cathode or whatever is connected to it, thereby electroplating it.  This is exactly how an electroplating cell works.

The problem is that without the electrolyte, the cell functions this way so beyond being able to run minuscule current through it, everything you make disappears as silver plating of the cathode.

Yes they use an electrolyte in a real plating cell to increase the conductivity of the water.  The electrolyte we use however (sodium carbonate 1M solution) has been chosen to INTERFERE with the uptake of the silver on the cathode - a.k.a. a "broken" plating cell which is exactly what we want as we want to raise the level of silver oxide in water  to the desired amount, keeping it all from plating out on the cathode.

You NEED the electrolyte. It has 3 functions, 2 of which are important to you.

1) it lowers the resistance of the cell so you can move larger amounts of current through it so you can achieve your desired result using a stopwatch rather than a calendar (wink)
2) it INTERFERES with the normal plating action of the cell thereby allowing the concentration of ionic silver in solution to go up and up and up though, at room temp (thats 75F and no colder), the absolute limit is about 21-22PPM. Beyond this it will start precipitating out of solution. This means you can never make more than 21-22PMM IS because eventually, even if you're heating the cell, it will cool down to room temp and anything over 21-22PPM will precipitate out of solution and eventually collect as a grey dust on the bottom of the container though at the size of the molecules, this could take days to weeks to be visible.
3) for making Colloidal Silver where you then need to reduce the manufactured IS to Colloidal Silver, reducing agents only work in an alkaline environment. The amount of 1M reducer stated (1ml/liter -  a.k.a. 20 drops from a standard eyedropper per liter of water) raises the PH of the water to around 8.5PH which is kind of the sweet spot for the reducers we use to function properly and quickly.

And just so its said, Faraday's law of electrolysis ONLY works if the current through the cell remains CONSTANT over the interval you're timing.

What the silvertron does is for each sampling interval (1/100th of a second), it measures the current, calculates how much silver has been pulled into solution during this time based on the constant current and maintains a running total. When it gets to the PPM you set it to, it ends the run.  This is not something you can easily do by eye. In this regard, the time interval is 1/100th of a second where the silvertron does it over and over and over until the desired PPM is reached.

This is why Kephra says that the Silvertron isn't overly concerned with the stability of the constant current. Yes it has a constant current limiter but so long as the current over each 1/100th of a second interval remains constant (in a Colloidal Silver cell, changes don't happen nearly this quickly) it will still get you to the end result (PPM) you desire.

In mathematical terms, what the silvertron does is integrate current over time where the step size is 1/100th of a second.