Author Topic: Maltodextrin tidbits  (Read 12192 times)

Offline Dean

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2020, 09:00:07 PM »
I only make 40ppm and 320ppm
I use 0.6g for the 40 and 4g for the 320.
Comes out perfectly every time.

Many times mentioned is that more will not be an issue, just makes your silver a bit sweeter if you have more reducer in there than there is silver
for any given ppm. Think of it as "unused reducing agent" I suppose!  8)

Offline dimoune

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2020, 10:46:23 PM »
Can I use maltose as a substitute for maltodextrin?

Offline Gene

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2020, 11:03:03 PM »
Maltose looks to be a glucose chain of 2 molecules of glucose. I'm not sure this is the same structure as maltodextrin (it too is a chain of some number of glucose molecules where only the one on one of the ends can reduce - same with maltose).

Karo is 30% glucose, 30% maltos, the rest water.

You can buy maltodextrine as Carbogain.  If you have a home beer brewing supply shop nearby, call them. There's a pretty good chance they'll have it as its used in beer brewing for some recipes to give the finished product a creamy mouth-feel.

Thats where I got mine. IIRC it was around $3 for a pound which is a lifetime supply (at least for me). Carbogain is way more expensive.

indocomp

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2021, 10:27:01 AM »
I am planning to use only a magnetic steering with maltodextrin to get the best ppm i could get ( refer to 100ppm possible with heating and steering method using malltodextrin )
If i prepared it by heating it up at the beginning using my electric stove to 150F (maltodextrin in DW solution before start the electrolysis)
and start the process with magnetic steering at around 15mA, what is the maximum solution i can get with that methods?
Can i get up to 50ppm just with steering and without further heating treament?
NO heating afterwards during the process or after the process
Im sorry i asked so many question without experimenting , hopefully it will help me make a judgement to start my first batch
Thanks

Offline Gene

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2021, 11:27:31 PM »
I make 80PPM "naked" (no gelatine) every so often for topical, stomach (gelatine is digested in the small intestine, not the stomach (why we use it) so its ineffective against stomach ailments and cuts/wounds.

I run 10ma (silver wire - can bump this to 15-20ma with a bullion bar), no stirring, 150F on a hotplate, maltodextrin (Karo isn't good for anything "naked" over 20PPM but if you're gel-capping, I routinely make 120PPM-160PPM just find reducing with it).

Yes, if you're going over 20PPM you MUST add the reducer at the start of the run because of the solubility limit of silver oxide in water. You need to reduce it to Colloidal Silver as quickly as you can to keep the PPM below the limit at whatever temp you're running.  At 150F its around 40PPM but no one has an accurate statement of why so its only a guide.

indocomp

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2021, 05:21:46 AM »
hi guys , i want to ask, in previous articles maltodextrin better use for lung infection or external use, but i want to ask if its possible for internal use or oral use if only use maltodextrin specially for chicken broiler,  i am aiming to kill e coli inside the chicken from food , drink and other contaminations

gel capped definitely is a must for human but how about chicken?
maybe the chicken has less chloride or stomach acid compare with human?

thanks

Offline kephra

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2021, 06:51:06 AM »
Quote
gel capped definitely is a must for human but how about chicken?
Gel capped is not a must for humans, and I doubt it is for chickens either.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

indocomp

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2021, 07:48:08 AM »
"so using maltodextrin as capping agent also safe for oral take?
drinking use, does not have to be gel-capped right?"

Correct, and birds such as chickens have a crop, through which some uptake may also take place.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 12:29:25 PM by cfnisbet »

Offline Gene

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2021, 09:48:44 PM »
All capping agents/reducers we use are safe for humans to ingest.

Gelatine provides a very strong stabilizer that keeps the silver particles tiny and keeps the Colloidal Silver good for a very long time.

Karo works well but only for PPM's of 20 or less though it works well into the higher PPM's IF you're going to then gel-cap as the gelatine becomes the strong stabilizer, which Karo isn't. Above that, for non-gel-capped, use maltodextrin as its a MUCH better stabilizer.

I've never made malto reduced non-gel-capped higher than 80PPM so I can't say how high you can go and keep it stable and good for years but I've had 80PPM that still looks like the day I've made it for years.

And yes, if you prefer, you can use malto as the reducing agent for gel-capped. I've taken it as high as 120PPM and it seems to work well.

There is some research that suggests adding gelatine at the beginning of a higher PPM run yields SMALLER silver particles, closer to 10nm, which is better.  I tried it recently instead of adding it after the run and I'm hooked.  The result is MUCH clearer and very transparent compared to what I get when I add the gelatine after.  The talk that the gelatine slows down reduction may be over-stated unless this applies mostly to higher current, higher PPM runs.  The runs I did were at 7.5ma to 120PPM and it may have slowed down reduction a little for being in solution from the beginning of the run but from my observation, not by a whole lot.  I also didn't have to do any flame cleaning of my anode half way through the run. This too might be more applicable to the "on the road to 320PPM" path (wink) and I have no desire nor need to ever make 320PPM.  120PPM is plenty good enough for my needs.

Gelatine is also a better stabilizer and the human stomach does not digest nor manipulate protein, which gelatine is (no, vegetable gelatine will NOT work) so everything you ingested gets into the small intestine where a couple enzymes digest the protein and let out the silver to be absorbed.

100% or nearly so of what you ingested makes it into the small intestine though there is no easy way to ascertain what the actual absorption rate into the blood is though given non-gel-capped has been shown to have as much as 25% of the particles agglomerate (stick together) into much larger "chunks" that are not absorb-able, due to the actions of the stomach, if you can get all of it into the small intestine without changing the particle size, which is what gelatine affords you, you stand to absorb a goodly amount of that 25% you'd have lost in the stomach with non-gel-capped.

indocomp

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2021, 08:16:16 AM »
hi gene, when you did 120 ppm , you add both malto and gelatine at the beginning and only heating it right?

im gonna go for 20 ppm and malto at the moment and feed it to my chicken at 1:10 dilution ratio, hopefully the 25 percent of the particles get lower rate of aglomeration because i think birds is different with human

this is my 1 litre 18 ppm result using  maltodextrin 0.3 gram and 0.5 gram looks same for me

Offline Gene

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2021, 05:41:35 AM »
When I make gel-capped, I just use 50:50 karo as a reducer and add that and the gelatine up front.  Karo will reduce just fine and its easy to use. Its just not a good stabilizer up over 20PPM which the gelatine fixes just fine.

The formula for malto is:

PPM * volume(liters) * 14.194 = malto (in milligrams)

The reason for so much is because you can't (at least not in the US) buy single DE number malto (meaning its all the exact same molecular weight) where all we can get is unnumbered "mixed bag" which could be all over the place so the above number guarantees that you get enough with mixed bag malto and yes, you need a lot more.

The DE number stands for dextrose equivalent (wikipedia.com I believe explains it if you look up maltodextrin).

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

Which explains things.  288.88/20 = 14.194 - thats where that comes from.

20mg of silver is 1 liter of 20PPM. Thats why the formula is PPM * volume(Liters) which could be rewritten as silver(milligrams) * 14.194

If you're making non-gel-capped Colloidal Silver, I prefer malto even at 20PPM. Though you get a slightly darker final color, its also really crystal clear (at least for me).  I always process at a higher temp (150F) but then I rarely if ever make 20PPM anymore.

Offline openminded

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2022, 01:58:27 AM »
Hi,

I am a non scientific person, and trying to read up as much as possible to learn making colloidal silver and a bit confused in

Gene's post # 13 it says:

Quote
PPM * Volume(liters) * 0.014

So say you're making 80PPM and a liter of it, you'd need the following amount of malto to guarantee a full reduction to Colloidal Silver:

80 * 1 * 0.014 = 1.12 grams




Gene's post # 25 it says:

Quote
The formula for malto is:

PPM * volume(liters) * 14.194 = malto (in milligrams)



The confusion come from:

1. Two different formulas
2. The first formula says its for any malto

Is it possible, someone can help me to understand?

Thanks



Offline Gene

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2022, 07:14:35 AM »
No its not 2 different formulas. Its the same formula. The first provides results in grams where the second provides results in milligrams.

The constant 14.194 was computed by another individual (there's a whole post he made about it though I don't have the link handy) to account for the worst case.

With maltodextrin, there is an associated "DE" number (dextrose equivalency).  Maltodextrin varies from chains of glucose molecules (dextrose - has 2 different names) maybe 3 long to 20 or more.  The longer the chain, the more weight in maltodextrin you need because each chain has exactly ONE reducing group at one end of the chain which can reduce exactly 1 silver oxide molecule so necessarily, if all you have is the heaviests weight malto, you need a lot more malto for a given PPM to reduce it properly.

You "can" buy single DE rated malto but not from inexpensive sources (at least in the US). You'd have to buy them from a chemical supply house.

The more commonly available malto (carbogain or maltodextrin that can be had from a home beer brewing supply shop for cheap) are all mixed bag (random, unspecified mixes of various DE number maltos) where no one knows or documents the mix. So, all you can do is assume the worst (you got a bag full of the longest malto - highest DE number - you can get) where you need the most malto weight to reduce the PPM of silver oxide you want to.  That constant is 14.194.  The 0.014 in the first formula was I think stated elsewhere by another individual and  I think I found the whole scientific analysis post after this and learned the exact constant of 14.194 so thats what I use now.

Just so its said, the reason you can buy maltodextrin from a home beer brewing supply shop is because for some beer recipes, they add malto to impart a creamy mouthfeel to the beer.  I bought a pound this way years ago and at the time IIRC, it cost me all of $3 US. Thats a ten+ lifetime supply (wink).

Hopefully this all makes sense to you now.


Offline kephra

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2022, 03:23:30 PM »
Everything Gene said is true, but unnecessary.  Just add 1/2 teaspoon per liter of water.  There is a minimum amount necessary, but extra does not hurt anything.
I never weigh maltodextrin.  I only weigh things which must be accurate, like sodium carbonate to make electrolyte.  But if you want to do the calcs, and weight the powder,  thats ok too.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline openminded

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Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2022, 04:48:00 PM »
Hi,

Thank you for the replies.

Gene, I didn't even see the "grams" & "milligrams", will make a point to note that in the future.  I think I will get it, its a  steep learning curve.  Thank you .

Kephra, thank you, I appreciate you sharing how you measure it.

Thank you