Author Topic: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?  (Read 4831 times)

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« on: January 19, 2019, 03:13:28 PM »
Hi folks,

After a couple of years of focusing mostly on colloidal gold, I've fixed up my little homebuilt Colloidal Silver generator, which does 5mA constant at up to 60 V DC.

Now I'm looking to try out different formulas. I've always either used heat reduction or maltodextrin, which seems to work well. Judging by color, I would say malto can do over 100 PPM, though there is some turbidity when running it that hot.

The other day I did a very gentle production run of 50 PPM Colloidal Silver with no heat at all. 500ml cold water, maltodextrin in right away and then alternating between running and pausing to let the reduction catch up for 25 minutes at a time. It came out a nice, clean yellow. Though the flashlight still showed a little bit of turbidity. Leading me to believe that it's impossible to make it 'perfectly'. At least by these methods. I couldn't produce it more gently if I tried.

Ordered some 70% spirit to try cinnamon and vanilla extract. My head is spinning from all the forum posts I read already, but maybe someone can summarize their findings or just shed some light on this question. How high is the PPM you've achieved with maltodextrin, cinnamon or vanilla extract? I am not looking to gel cap, but would like to find a reliable reduction agent with little turbidity up to 100 or even 200 PPM. I would also like to use something other than carbs for my ultrasonic nebulizer, because they might gum up the works. So far I understand cinnamon extract may be my best bet.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 08:05:44 PM »
If you are wanting to use cinnamon tincture, I have easily gone up to 100ppm.

If you are using an ultrasonic humidifier, then I have found that 20-40 ppm is more than adequate for the purpose.

Offline Dean

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2019, 10:55:28 PM »
Hi folks,

After a couple of years of focusing mostly on colloidal gold, I've fixed up my little homebuilt colloidal silver generator, which does 5mA constant at up to 60 V DC.

Now I'm looking to try out different formulas. I've always either used heat reduction or maltodextrin, which seems to work well. Judging by color, I would say malto can do over 100 PPM, though there is some turbidity when running it that hot.

The other day I did a very gentle production run of 50 PPM colloidal silver with no heat at all. 500ml cold water, maltodextrin in right away and then alternating between running and pausing to let the reduction catch up for 25 minutes at a time. It came out a nice, clean yellow. Though the flashlight still showed a little bit of turbidity. Leading me to believe that it's impossible to make it 'perfectly'. At least by these methods. I couldn't produce it more gently if I tried.

Ordered some 70% spirit to try cinnamon and vanilla extract. My head is spinning from all the forum posts I read already, but maybe someone can summarize their findings or just shed some light on this question. How high is the PPM you've achieved with maltodextrin, cinnamon or vanilla extract? I am not looking to gel cap, but would like to find a reliable reduction agent with little turbidity up to 100 or even 200 PPM. I would also like to use something other than carbs for my ultrasonic nebulizer, because they might gum up the works. So far I understand cinnamon extract may be my best bet.

I've had good results with cinnamon though it was at the start of my journey and don't think I tried anything over 40ppm. I have reported many times that I am not a big fan of excessive heat. I start 40ppm at 30c and don't let it rise beyond 40c. Even when making 320ppm I again start at 30c and let it rise gradually over the course of the 5 hour 20 minute run to no more than 70 - 75c by the end.

I've recently started making 320ppm with malto with zero adverse effects. Though I do always cap 320ppm.
I'm conscious of solubility limit being 20ppm at room temp so I'm amazed that you got 50ppm with now heat but, given that you then explained you let reduction catch up accordingly I guess this is quite possible.

I think there's a balance here between production time and final product but with production so stable with our processes I have never felt the need to make higher than 40ppm when not capping as it takes a relatively short amount of time to get a good quality product.

Not sure if this helps but fire away with any other questions or thoughts.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 02:25:52 PM »
I did the 50ppm cold with maltodextrin. Maltodextrin will reduce higher ppm just fine, but it becomes a matter of time. I wouldn't want to do 320ppm with pauses every 20ppm to let the reduction catch up. So it was an experiment, not a standard way for me to produce colloidal silver. But I don't see why maltodextrin couldn't do high ppm cold if you have the patience for it - or if you're running it at low milliamps. 5mA was a touch too fast, but I imagine around 2-3mA should be the sweet spot to be able to leave it running without interruptions.

I also like to do my colloidal silver with medium temperature around 35°c and maltodextrin for 50ppm or 100ppm batches. Gel capping seems to be a cure-all for higher ppm colloids, so it's not really a fair comparison of what other reduction agents can do without gelatine. You could probably use any reduction agent you liked and gelatine would ensure a stable high ppm colloid.

You're right about lower ppm being perfectly usable. I'm thinking of specialty applications, like eye drops, ear drops or inhalation. You're working with a few milliliters at a time and there's no risk of oversaturating yourself. While it's absolutely possible that 15ml of a 20ppm product is just not enough to quell a serious bacterial infection.

One question I do have: If we assume a certain temperature (say 35°c) is required for reduction to occur fast enough, why let heat rise beyond that gradually? I understand heating it at the very end after the electrolysis is done just to cook any remaining ions, but if more heat = more tyndall, then I would think keeping temperature firmly at a required minimum would be the way to go.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:34:08 PM by SaltyCornflakes »

FlyingDutchman

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2019, 05:54:10 PM »
Hi folks,

After a couple of years of focusing mostly on colloidal gold, I've fixed up my little homebuilt colloidal silver generator, which does 5mA constant at up to 60 V DC.

Now I'm looking to try out different formulas. I've always either used heat reduction or maltodextrin, which seems to work well. Judging by color, I would say malto can do over 100 PPM, though there is some turbidity when running it that hot.

The other day I did a very gentle production run of 50 PPM colloidal silver with no heat at all. 500ml cold water, maltodextrin in right away and then alternating between running and pausing to let the reduction catch up for 25 minutes at a time. It came out a nice, clean yellow. Though the flashlight still showed a little bit of turbidity. Leading me to believe that it's impossible to make it 'perfectly'. At least by these methods. I couldn't produce it more gently if I tried.

Ordered some 70% spirit to try cinnamon and vanilla extract. My head is spinning from all the forum posts I read already, but maybe someone can summarize their findings or just shed some light on this question. How high is the PPM you've achieved with maltodextrin, cinnamon or vanilla extract? I am not looking to gel cap, but would like to find a reliable reduction agent with little turbidity up to 100 or even 200 PPM. I would also like to use something other than carbs for my ultrasonic nebulizer, because they might gum up the works. So far I understand cinnamon extract may be my best bet.

I just got sent this report about orange pectin as a capping agent, with excellent 5-year stability results (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01131939/document) This may be a good vegan alternative for gelatin capped nano silver, as pectin seems to protect well against stomach acid. Especially the combination with citrate as reducing agent (creating spherical particles) sounds promising. Has anyone experience with pectin? I will post results as soon as I have had the opportunity to test this in higher ppm production.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2019, 09:11:53 AM »
This certainly sounds interesting. Let us know what happens.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2019, 10:53:38 AM »
I read before in a thread by PeterXXL that pectin is undigestible fiber, so any nanoparticles capped with pectin would just come out the other end.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 11:51:38 AM »
I made 100ppm silver with cinnamon extract last night. Heated to 40°c at the beginning and never exceeded 45°c throughout. It came out a super clean amber orange. Surprisingly light, considering my 200ppm gel-capped malto experiment turned into very turbid coffee (it still waters down to a usable product).

Very little turbidity and a mild alcohol taste with the cinnamon. Going by taste, I think it reduced properly. It also surprised me how quickly it changed color during the electrolysis. At the end, I heated it up to 90°c just to see if any more color change would occur - it did not. Cinnamon works fast enough that I think I could probably do this process cold. I used 1g cinnamon to 33ml 70% alcohol, which is about 3 times more concentrated than kephra's. It seems to work well going by his formula and using 1/3rd the amount of drops. I may push this further as well to lessen the alcohol taste and the amount of alcohol used. I wonder where the point of saturation is.

Adding a teaspoon of citric acid to a small glass of the 100ppm silver turned it red and slightly turbid after a lot of stirring. Adding just a little bit first did not do much to the color. Adding salt turns the stuff gray immediately. Pretty much exactly how my maltodextrin-reduced product reacts.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 12:00:55 PM by SaltyCornflakes »

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 12:21:02 PM »
Yeah, but it also showed me that it wasn't any worse. I think if the reduction had been incomplete, I would have seen much more drastic changes with the citric acid for example. The light color made me suspicious is all. And now I have a great formula for my inhalator.

With gel-capping, I still have to get comfortable with the process. I 'only' heated it up to 50°c at first, then panicked and went up to 65°c when I didn't see a color change fast enough. I've since learned that with gelatin, it's not unusual that it'll stay clear a long while, then darken into an orange-brown instead of yellow. I also didn't keep the anode obsessively clean. For the next run, I'll probably keep it at high heat throughout and clean the anode every X minutes. For the third run, I'm curious how cinnamon and less heat will work with gelatin, since it's faster than maltodextrin.

Oh, it just occured to me: Since I can get a clean high ppm product with cinnamon, I could actually gel cap it afterwards and not have to deal with that whole cleaning mess.

Offline Gene

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 07:03:16 PM »
As far as higher PPMs, just run a little hot (say 150F like I do), add ALL of your reducing agent at the beginning of the run and run whatever current you feel comfortable with.  You can go as high as you want in PPM because at that temp the reducing agent will reduce the silver oxide in the water fast enough that you never exceed the solubility limit. At 150F that limit is up around 40PPM.

I've run up to 120PPM with no issues and I'm sure if I wanted to invest more time in making a batch, I could push it much higher but to me, the space to store 1 quart of concentrate which will make 1.5 gallons of 20PPM is acceptable to me.

The reducer you use, as long as it works relatively quickly (both Karo and maltodextrin do) really doesn't matter unless you're producing higher concentrations than about 20PPM.

Gel capping is a good stabilizer.

Up much over 20PPM if not gel-capping, Karo isn't such a good idea as its not a good stabilizer. Maltodextrin is.  I routinely make 80PPM malto reduced "naked" Colloidal Silver and I've had jars of it for years and its never gone bad nor changed color.  I can't say the same thing for Karo reduced. You're probably OK with Karo for 6-12 months but for me, when a jar of it started getting up around a year old, bad things started happening.  Your mileage may vary.

If you're gel-capping, any reducing agent is fine because all the silver particles will be coated with a thin coat of gelatine which as I said, is a good stabilizer.

FlyingDutchman

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2019, 07:00:18 PM »
I read before in a thread by PeterXXL that pectin is undigestible fiber, so any nanoparticles capped with pectin would just come out the other end.

The orange pectin we use is the one used to make jams and jellies, called MCP or "Modified Citrus Pectin" which is not only more readily absorbed into the blood stream, but is also mentioned in studied concerning treatment of metastasis of various types of cancer. I have run a 100 ppm test batch at 70°C, using trisodium citrate as reducing agent, and the result looks as expected, quite similar to the glicose/gelatin protocol (fotos attached: (1) filtering pectin after dissolving in hot distilled water (2) end result after full reduction and (3) 1 part diluted in 5 parts water). Time will tell more about the stability.

Offline cosanostra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2019, 11:18:21 AM »
I read before in a thread by PeterXXL that pectin is undigestible fiber, so any nanoparticles capped with pectin would just come out the other end.

This is not the complete truth. Pectin is classified as prebiotic which means that the probiotics(good bacteries) in intestinal tract are feed with pectin. So the simple logic say, that pectin passes easily through the stomach, and it's absorbed in guts. I can confirm that, because I've started producing my Colloidal Silver via pectin. How I am doing it: Reducing the IS by heating, and then add the hot dilluted pectin, and switch to cooling. The pectin shouldn't have to be heated too much/long, because the long chains would be broke.

“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
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Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2019, 11:43:25 AM »
The quickest way to produce an (admittedly non-qualitative) answer is to ascertain whether the Colloidal Silver actually has an effect when capped this way. Wait until you have a stomach upset, and then drink 250 mls of Colloidal Silver capped in this manner. If the stomach pain is removed within an hour, then the capping is being dissolved at a sufficiently fast rate in the intestines.

Offline cosanostra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2019, 02:51:03 PM »
Someone(maybe you) told that silver particles kills not only pathogens but also good bacteriа, then why not using them to contribute the process? I was start drinking about 1mg silver per day capped with pectin, and I can say the candida growth decrease (based on morning saliva test). I have to say that I'm daily consume probiotic food such as fermented veggies, kombucha.
“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 04:35:28 PM »
After a few experiments with cinnamon extract (no gel), I can't seem to get a high PPM product that isn't turbid.

When I run it at 70°c, the color at first turns yellow, then amber, then brown. But once I get past 100 PPM or so, I notice mud on the cathode, as well as white turbidity. I've been using plenty of cinnamon, so that shouldn't be it.

When I run it cold, the color seems to stay fairly light. Even 100 PPM ends up looking like a dark amber - with very little turbidity though.

I also noticed that the amount of cinnamon extract used for high PPM makes the DW turn yellow when I heat it even before I start the electrolysis. I guess this has something to do with the cinnamon changing in solution. I hope it does not mean that the cinnamon becomes unusable at high temperatures.