Author Topic: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?  (Read 4830 times)

Offline cosanostra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 09:46:57 AM »
First made of 80 ppm with heating on intervals and instant coffee RA plus pectin as stabilizer after electrolysis.
Do you agree coffee is good for this process considering how much chemicals contains? I use it, because it's very fast reductor.

Backup question: I found Karo syrup contains 30mg./30ml. sodium. From here I know that salt is not good for silver, especially during electroysis.
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Offline kephra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 11:33:54 AM »
The bad thing about coffee is that it colors the solution.

The sodium in corn syrup is irrelevant for 2 reasons.  See if you can figure out why.
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Offline cosanostra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2019, 06:24:35 PM »
The bad thing about coffee is that it colors the solution.

The sodium in corn syrup is irrelevant for 2 reasons.  See if you can figure out why.
The color is not important so much to me. I've started at 0 ppm with light yellow(from coffee) and color level rise dramatically at finish, so I know there is much particles. Coffee never gave me orange color, indeed could be yellow, gold or green. The question was directed more to safety reasons.

OK, it might was stupid question. I do not claim to competitive you.
One reason could be amount of sodium or salt.
Second, salt is sodium+chloride, so chloride is bad, sodium not. Details fled to me, sorry.

How could we know at 100%, sodium is not just added salt.
I'm asking that, because on my bio agave syrup label is written salt.
I know you didn't recommend agave, but Karo is not distributed here.
Next time I will buy raspberry syrup.
“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
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Offline kephra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2019, 07:45:47 PM »
Quote
OK, it might was stupid question. I do not claim to competitive you.
One reason could be amount of sodium or salt.
Second, salt is sodium+chloride, so chloride is bad, sodium not. Details fled to me, sorry.

How could we know at 100%, sodium is not just added salt.

Just trying to make you think :)
Yes, the amount of salt is miniscule, and too small to be a problem.  It came from neutralizing the acid that was used to make the syrup.  Starches are converted to sugars by heat and hydrochloric acid.  The acid was neutralized with sodium hydroxide which produced sodium chloride when combined with the hydrochloric acid used in the manufacturing process. 

Since the amount of salt is so small, any silver chloride produced will be low enough so that it does not precipitate.  It can then be reduced, just like the rest of the ionic silver.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline cosanostra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2019, 08:17:44 PM »
What is the number of god, you know everything. Respect
“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
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Offline kephra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2019, 08:38:54 PM »
What is the number of god, you know everything. Respect
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot :)  The longer I live, the more I know about less and less.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline dimoune

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2019, 08:02:11 AM »
Hi,

I'm using maltose as reducing agent.

I do not have access to knox gelatin. Can I use another animal gelatin brand and add it at the end of the process? Thanks.

Offline Neofizz

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2019, 02:36:14 PM »
I do not have access to knox gelatin. Can I use another animal gelatin brand and add it at the end of the process? Thanks.

You might be able to find Knox gelatin on Amazon. Other animal gelatin should work, just make sure it's unflavored with no additives.

If you are making 20-40 ppm colloidal silver you can add the gelatin at the end, just make sure the solution is hot enough to dissolve the gelatin. If making 320 ppm you need to add it at the beginning.
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Offline dimoune

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2019, 06:51:08 AM »
I do not have access to knox gelatin. Can I use another animal gelatin brand and add it at the end of the process? Thanks.

You might be able to find Knox gelatin on Amazon. Other animal gelatin should work, just make sure it's unflavored with no additives.

If you are making 20-40 ppm colloidal silver you can add the gelatin at the end, just make sure the solution is hot enough to dissolve the gelatin. If making 320 ppm you need to add it at the beginning.

I recalled having read somewhere on the forum that maltose is an excellent reducing agent on its own and can go upto to 500 ppm. If this is the case, I wonder if I can prepare 320 ppm with maltose alone and capped at the end. Since I would be using a gelatin brand other than knox, I don't want to add it in the electrolysis process.

Offline kephra

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2019, 11:33:35 AM »
Quote
I recalled having read somewhere on the forum that maltose is an excellent reducing agent on its own and can go upto to 500 ppm. If this is the case, I wonder if I can prepare 320 ppm with maltose alone and capped at the end. Since I would be using a gelatin brand other than knox, I don't want to add it in the electrolysis process
No, thats not true.  Maltose is a good reducing agent, but not a very good capping agent, so a strong capping agent like gelatin must be used at the start of the process. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2019, 07:32:44 PM »
It looks like for use with gelatin, you want an agent that is the strongest possible reducer and the weakest possible capper. My experiments with dextrose & gelatin worked so much better than maltodextrin & gelatin. Maltodextrin resulted in a lot of turbidity, dextrose had nearly none. We can get Karo light corn syrup here, but I figured why not get a pure substance and start there. Maybe I'll do another one with pure maltose.

I also did a run with cinnamon extract at room temperature, going for 100 PPM. I noticed that the colloidal silver would get fairly dark, then lighten up again after I heated it to boiling. See attachments. This I don't understand. The photos also don't do the real colors justice. But they do serve as a comparison.

My hunch is that something happens when the heat makes the alcohol evaporate out of solution. Heating distilled water with cinnamon extract up also produces a color change as soon as the alcohol is gone (it gets slightly darker).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 07:50:30 PM by SaltyCornflakes »

Offline Gene

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2019, 08:21:29 PM »
I've never had any luck with glucose.  Even for lower concentrations (40-80PPM which I am going to gel cap after the run), I get a lot of turbidity and cloudiness I've never been able to figure out.  I stick with Karo and even use Karo for gel-capping. I am using the 50/50 karo/vodka mix and for me it works great notwithstanding the fact even sitting at room temp in a closed dropper bottle, it never goes bad.

For naked, for lower PPM's, I use Karo (20PPM).  For higher PPM's, I use maltodextrin as its the most stable "simple" reducing agent. I don't like Colloidal Silver that tastes like cinnamon.  I've had a jar of 80PPM malto reduced around for years and its still in perfect shape.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2019, 10:42:01 PM »
Yeah, Maltodextrin works fine, but I'm on a search for a reducing agent that can keep up with 5mA constant without too much heat, which cinnamon seems to be better at for the most part. With Maltodextrin I have always had more luck keeping the solution moderately warm at 35°c or so. But unlike colloidal gold, with colloidal silver I really get much more coherent particles and less turbidity keeping it as close to room temp as possible.

Strange that glucose didn't work out for you. It is much more powerful than Maltodextrin, so you can cut the amount down a fair bit, like 1/10th. Using too much glucose may worsen the end product. What I did: Added glucose, sodium carbonate, gelatin right away. Heated to +85°c, then began the electrolysis. Cleaned electrodes every 40 minutes or so. 200 PPM turned out very nice! Hardly any normal turbidity. Mostly just the greenish hue which seems to be a gelatin thing. I would not use glucose for any concentrations beyond 20 PPM or so without gel capping.

Offline nix2p

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2019, 05:38:44 AM »
Cinnamon
- I started using Cinnamon, for both reducing and capping.  Well, question is how strong is
cinnamon tincture initially made, - (in my case).
- 1/3 of Ceylon cinnamon, to 2 thirds 151 proof, grain alcohol. I used to ad light Karo,
diluted half and half, with 20 PPM colloidal silver, approximate 7-8 drops, and my
batch is 1.8 Litter, and temp is 130-140 F, #2 silver rod, 15mA. (From now on, water temp is
 going to be 80-85F; Big, thanks Kep!) ???
After 2 years or so, using Karo, (same bottle); batches started to become slightly darker.
O.K. So as I started, to try tincture of cinnamon, as described above, and when i used
7 drops of cinnamon in my final extraction, batch came tooo-dark! Then I went to use
3 drops, and color was "restored", again!
...Have not tried making cinnamon with lesser proof-alcohol... Then I do not know, if the
cinnamon powder has anything to do with the strength of tincture.

Nix


(Revised 9/22/2019 3:00PM Eastern time).
P.S. Sorry, forgot to address the fact that I decided to try cinnamon instead of Karo, (had positive results always, not that I have experienced anything adverse in my applications, using Karo, for reducing), it's most likely that "operator" did not shake bottle properly... and bottle of reducer is not refrigerated.
  Solution; I believe i have to make a new-fresh-batch and give it a go again. 
Thanks
Nix
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 11:32:44 PM by nix2p »
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Offline Gene

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Re: Good reducing agent for higher PPM, no gel cap?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2019, 07:57:20 PM »
I currently process at 150F (about 65.5C) and other than with glucose, other reducing agents (malto, karo), even up to 160PPM, it comes out clear and non-turbid.  Of course I usually gel cap but I've found I can keep around a quart of 80-100PPM non-gel-capped for years as long as I reduce using maltodextrin.  No, I don't drink it - only gel-capped but there are things I use "naked" for - in a nasal spray atomizer to stave off colds in the winter (works), on cuts though more recently I'm using gel-capped with equally good results where it appears the gelatine creates a "natural" bandaid over the cut or wound. For stomach viruses, gel capped doesn't work because you need the Colloidal Silver active in the stomach.

I really don't know what the issue with glucose is. Yes, I know you need very little. I've even tried recommended amounts from Wayne's spreadsheet (he calculates to the molecule I think so its way on the light side) and that didn't work either.  There's just something I must not be doing right.

I always add the reducing agent and electrolyte at the start. I choose to add the gelatine after the run is done/reduced.  Thats the way I've always done it and it seems to work well for me and no, I don't have to clean the silver electrode through the whole run, if even I'm making 160PPM.  At 10ma, 1 quart, 160PPM, that takes 4 hours.

150F is advantageous IMHO because at that temp, the solubility of Colloidal Silver in water is up around 40PPM so it buys me some breathing room to make sure the reducing agent gets whats created reduced in plenty of time. I could probably back down to 120-130F and I'll probably try that for the next batch to see how it goes.

BTW, from what I've been able to determine, even 150F is not considered "HOT" and instead "Warm". Hot is much closer to boiling. I'm not going there without a heated stir plate which I don't currently own.  Since I add the gelatine after the run, you really want the temp of the finished Colloidal Silver up around 130F so it blooms quickly and coats properly.  Just letting the 150F or so Colloidal Silver cool for a few minutes to hit 130-135F is easy.

It may be advantageous to run at 130-135F instead because if for no other reason, I can immediately add the gelatine after the run rather than waiting sometimes upwards of 30 minutes to do so.

I may well try glucose again near room temp (maybe 100F) to see if that helps. It reduces very quickly at higher temps and that could be an issue.  If I can take it all the way up to even 120PPM at a lower temp where its non-cloudy/turbid, that could be handy. Yeah, I'll have to heat some to get to 130+F but its not that big an issue.