Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Colloidal Gold Production => Topic started by: bsilverman444 on July 28, 2012, 10:14:01 PM

Title: colloidal gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 28, 2012, 10:14:01 PM
I have made a 4 L batch of colloidal gold using kephra's 1-1-1 model as a base.

4000 ml dw
1/4 tspn salt
1/2 tspn sodium citrate
1 tbspn cinnamon extract
gold coin anode
350 mA constant current

Photo taken after every hour.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 28, 2012, 10:33:49 PM
After 4 1/2 hours i turned off the current but kept the heat on.

Then i added 2 ml more of cinnamon. The colloidal gold turned a darker ruby red. Left side photo.

Then another 2 ml of cinnamon. The colloidal gold changed color tone from ruby towards pinkish, tho the photo shows darker ruby. Right side photo. Dont know whats happening here. Suspect over saturation of cinnamon. Anyone know what effect that has?

Any guesses as to ppm? The photos are slightly darker than actual colloidal gold.

Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 28, 2012, 10:46:54 PM
Wow, thats a big batch!
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 28, 2012, 10:56:42 PM
I think you should have used more salt.  The formula I gave was:

Quote
1/2 teaspoon table salt
1/2 teaspoon sodium citrate powder
1 tablespoon cinnamon extract
1 gal (or 4 liters) distilled water.

This would bring your ppm up higher.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 12:23:32 AM
I deliberately cut the salt by half because i want to see if it would taste better, and it does. Maybe sacrificing ppm?
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 29, 2012, 12:41:15 AM
Yes, lower ppm,  you can compensate by longer time.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 12:48:31 AM
Ok, thx. Can u estimate the ppm of this run?
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 29, 2012, 01:18:46 AM
Maybe 25 to 35 is the best estimate I can make.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 01:20:02 AM
Ok thanks, i am happy with that.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: pawelk on July 29, 2012, 02:12:16 AM
Not bad at all... I say very good.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 02:28:11 AM
Thanks.

I must say that color in colloidals is deceiving.

The more volume the darker the color. The photo below illustrates this as they are both the exact same colloidal gold.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: lordkarma on July 29, 2012, 02:22:22 PM
First off congrats bsilverman444 great job!  I don't know if you caught it in one of the other posts I had but Kephra told me to boil my colloidal gold after to reduce the nasty chlorine taste and it helps ALOT!  I make 1000 ml at a time and usually boil for about 10 mins then add distilled water to bring volume back up if needed.  I also use the 1-1-1 formula and have had great luck with it thus far.  I add the cinnamon extract to mine right at the beginning of the process I am not sure if that matters or not but works great for me.  colloidal gold is amazing stuff! 
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 03:07:14 PM
Thanks lordkarma. Yes i did catch the bit about boiling it after and that does help a lot. In this case i also topped up the water every 10-15 minutes as it evaporated quickly, and i ended up using a total of 8 liters, double the finished amount!

That and the fact that i used half the recommended salt, this batch has nearly no taste at all! I also added the cinnamon at the beginning and just added all the extra at the end as an after thought.

It did change color a lot also so something happened and i dont know if it is a benefit or not. Was hoping the experts would analyze that and give me some more good advises.

I have already concluded that it must be more efficient to make larger qty's since i used 16X the standard of water (250 ml) and only ran the process 3X longer, 290 min. as opposed to 90 min.

Of course i dont know my final ppm, but using kephra's guess of 25-35 ppm, i am very close to the desired 40 ppm.

And judging from the color changes every hour, i suspect if i ran it for another hour is would be up to the 40 ppm.

I would have liked to keep adding more cinnamon to see where that would go, but didnt want to chance spoiling that big qty. I might pour off some and heat it up and give it a go for experimental sake! And fun too!

I cant really say what benefits i may be getting from colloidal gold yet, but I think there may be some which i will report later when i am more sure. In the meantime it is very satisfying to make colloidal gold and watch water turn to wine.


Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 29, 2012, 03:24:57 PM
Quote
In this case i also topped up the water every 10-15 minutes as it evaporated quickly,
A loose fitting lid will keep the water loss to a minimum.  Once I get my 3D printer and figure out how to use it, I am going to make a couple with built in electrode holders to see how they work.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 03:36:04 PM
Kool! Since my setup is very basic i dont have a way to adjust the anode into the water as the water evaporates, so i just top up the water to bring it up to the anode so it is in the water an 1/8 to a 1/4 inch or until the amps stabilize at the 350 setting. Once the water reduces a bit the amp gauge starts to flutter and the voltage starts going up.

I suppose i should make a lid out of plexiglass or something. But for now, since i am still excited about making it, its ok as is.  Once the novelty wears off i may get motivated to reclaim the lost water.

The 3d printer sounds very exciting!
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 04:26:15 PM
I decided to experiment further with cinnamon extract. I poured off about a cup of colloidal gold from the larger batch and heated it to just boiling and began adding more cinnamon. The photo below shows a very slight increase in darkness. The bottle is from the original brew.

 1st glass on the left, i added 1 ml cinnamon to the heated solution then poured into the glass.

 2nd glass had 2 ml more added,

 3rd glass another 2 ml  (6ml)

 4th glass had a total of about 10 ml added.

It would appear that it doesnt make a lot of difference to the color, how much more cinnamon is added.

The taste is not effected either for me.  Those who dont like the cinnamon taste may have a different take on that.

Would appreciate any conclusions from the pros.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: cfnisbet on July 29, 2012, 05:19:59 PM
My only comment is that it looks as if you've got the process spot-on!
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 29, 2012, 06:05:57 PM
Quote
It would appear that it doesnt make a lot of difference to the color, how much more cinnamon is added.
It shouldn't make a lot of difference.  Making the extract is an inexact procedure though, as the cinnamon itself may vary in strength, and there is a difference between water extraction and alcohol extraction.  So you may need more cinnamon than I do for those reasons.    Its better to have too much than to have too little.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: mraluma415 on July 29, 2012, 07:44:03 PM
You have a great batch!  I use cinnamon only for both my colloidal silver and colloidal gold. I noticed for colloidal silver in 1000 mL it only takes 4 drops of cinnamon to completely reduce. When I compare 4 drops with a batch that has 16 drops, the color is the same. With colloidal gold I have noticed that more is needed with 1000mL. I think its important to use more reducing agent than less especially with my Gold Chloride process, since you dont want to have any Gold Chloride left over. If one doesnt like the taste, you can put it through a Brita water filter and it filters out the flavor quite a bit. I have been wondering if the microwave, after making a batch, has the ability to reduce nano-particles, I have yet to try it?  Keep up the good work!

I think another factor you may want to record in your observations is "turbidity". Is the turbidity less when more cinnamon is added? is the pink a sign of less turbidity and smaller particles? Also I agree with Kephra that if not enough salt is used you end up converting less of the gold chloride to metallic particles. These water filters are great when you finish because the seem to get alot of the left over sediments out of the solution before your ready to drink up!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 29, 2012, 07:50:30 PM
Quote
If one doesnt like the taste, you can put it through a Brita water filter and it filters out the flavor quite a bit.
Wow, thats a good tip!  I didn't know whether it would filter out the gold or not.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 08:33:53 PM
You have a great batch!  I use cinnamon only for both my colloidal silver and colloidal gold. I noticed for colloidal silver in 1000 mL it only takes 4 drops of cinnamon to completely reduce. When I compare 4 drops with a batch that has 16 drops, the color is the same. With colloidal gold I have noticed that more is needed with 1000mL. I think its important to use more reducing agent than less especially with my Gold Chloride process, since you dont want to have any Gold Chloride left over. If one doesnt like the taste, you can put it through a Brita water filter and it filters out the flavor quite a bit. I have been wondering if the microwave, after making a batch, has the ability to reduce nano-particles, I have yet to try it?  Keep up the good work!

I think another factor you may want to record in your observations is "turbidity". Is the turbidity less when more cinnamon is added? is the pink a sign of less turbidity and smaller particles? Also I agree with Kephra that if not enough salt is used you end up converting less of the gold chloride to metallic particles. These water filters are great when you finish because the seem to get alot of the left over sediments out of the solution before your ready to drink up!

Cheers!

Thanks.  BTW, i reported that the color turned toward a pinkish color, i would like modify that to say purplish!

I was watching turbidity and found more cinnamon made no difference at all.

There is also zero sediment.

I'm am trying to remember if gold chloride is made when using electrolysis. If so, then yes, more cinnamon would be better.  That would be the concern about salt as well. But doesnt salt just make the process quicker, not make more gold chloride?

So long as all the gold coming off the electrode is being reduced, then i'm not loosing anything. Right?
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: kephra on July 29, 2012, 09:44:48 PM
Salt plus electricity produces gold chloride.  Cinnamon or citrate reduces the gold chloride to metal again.

More salt increases the speed of gold chloride production.

When making gold,  there are initially three separate processes going on:
Electrolysis of sodium chloride which makes gold chloride plus sodium hydroxide
Electrolysis of cinnamon phenols
Electrolysis of sodium citrate which produces more sodium hydroxide plus citric acid.

After the initial fraction of a second electrolysis of sodium hydroxide ramps up.

So now there are four processes occurring.

If we start out with equal amounts of reagents, only 1/3rd of the current is making AuCl from sodium chloride.  However each molecule of AuCl made leaves less sodium chloride, so then there is less than 1/3rd of the reactions making gold chloride.  The result is that gold chloride production gets slower and slower as the process runs.  This is why we cannot calculate ppm from current and time.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: bsilverman444 on July 29, 2012, 09:51:01 PM
Ok thanks, that is helpful toward understanding the process.

So i correctly understood that the gold chloride is produced.

The rest of it isnt quite as clear to me, and i am not sure i need to understand it fully for now.

I will keep studying and experimenting.
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: mraluma415 on July 30, 2012, 05:15:49 AM
I was curious as well if the gold would be filtered out, or even the reducing agent. Im looking to get a millipore vacuum flask setup to filter my solutions to see what happens. I am curious as to whether the nano particles pass through the filter with the reducing agent attached or if the carbon separates the sugar from the electrons. So far it seems pretty stable. I cannot seem to get rid of floaties in my colloidal silver and colloidal gold no matter how many carbon filters and coffe filters I put it through, so I';m going for the pro setup. Ant suggestions on millipore filters, there are many substrates?

Another random piece of info that is interesting and completely off topic, i froze my colloidal silver that was made with sodium carbonate  and cinnamon, froze it to show my mother it wasnt dyed and to my surprise it melted back into its stable form and was still yellow. there were some peppered partilces on the bottom, I would say 50% loss. not bad!
Title: Re: Colloidal Gold color
Post by: LoveForums on January 29, 2022, 08:29:05 PM
I was curious as well if the gold would be filtered out, or even the reducing agent. Im looking to get a millipore vacuum flask setup to filter my solutions to see what happens. I am curious as to whether the nano particles pass through the filter with the reducing agent attached or if the carbon separates the sugar from the electrons. So far it seems pretty stable. I cannot seem to get rid of floaties in my colloidal silver and colloidal gold no matter how many carbon filters and coffe filters I put it through, so I';m going for the pro setup. Ant suggestions on millipore filters, there are many substrates?

Another random piece of info that is interesting and completely off topic, i froze my colloidal silver that was made with sodium carbonate  and cinnamon, froze it to show my mother it wasnt dyed and to my surprise it melted back into its stable form and was still yellow. there were some peppered partilces on the bottom, I would say 50% loss. not bad!

Has there been any progress on the use of vacuum flask and determining whether or not nanoparticles are actually filtered out (for silver and gold)? My primary focus presently is silver, but I do intend on making gold later on also.
Title: Re: colloidal gold color
Post by: Neofizz on January 31, 2022, 04:33:32 PM
I don't think there is an easy way to get filters that are fine enough to filter out 14 nm (average) particles. I doubtful that they even exist. Maybe a sheet of graphene would work but that sounds not doable.

I use coffee filters and they do a good enough job if there's dust or other floaties in it.

I don't think you can filter out nanoparticles with simple home setups.