Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Colloidal Gold Production => Topic started by: tseax on July 07, 2016, 07:22:08 PM

Title: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 07, 2016, 07:22:08 PM
Once again I'm looking to China for Chloroauric acid / gold chloride. As we know, living in Canada blocks one from using Salt Lake Metals handy product. It also prevents the purchase of HAuCl4 from a local chemical company without a business + business address + a good reason to be ordering the stuff - tedious, these hurdles :(

So, China suppliers are quoting me $695 US for 20 grams of product. At 47.8% guaranteed gold content (let's say 50 shall we) that's about 10 grams of Au. 1-oz of gold today is approximately US$1394 ( http://markets2.albern.com/index.html ). 1 oz ~ 28.35 grams, so one would expect 10 grams of gold metal (20 gram of HAuCl4) to cost around 10/28.35 x $1394 = $492.  Gold metal isn't gold chloride but that still makes $695 sound expensive. Then again...

Americans can buy Salt Lake Metals Gold Chloride 1% solution at $100 for 100 mL. 100 mL of 1% solution = 1 gram of gold ~ $2835/oz.  They will also sell you 99.99 gold powder at roughly $100/gm which, again, is ~ $2835/oz.

Arithmetic isn't my strong suit. It looks to me like China gold is less than half the price of World gold. That would make their Gold Chloride a steal. Am I seeing this straight?
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: RickinWI on July 08, 2016, 12:08:07 AM
Bullion, whether it is Au, Ag, Pt or whatever, is always measured in TROY ounces (ozt.).
One TROY ounce = 31.1 gm.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 08, 2016, 02:20:35 AM
Bullion, whether it is Au, Ag, Pt or whatever, is always measured in TROY ounces (ozt.).
One TROY ounce = 31.1 gm.

Yes indeed. So, starting over:

* We begin with $695USD for 20 grams of 47.8% gold-containing Chloroauric acid (HAuCl4) (from China) which contains approximately 10 grams of gold metal.
* 1 Troy oz of gold costs $1394USD (at one moment in time today). 1 oz ~ 31.1 gms (thank you RickinWI). 10 gms of Au would (in a linear world) cost 10/31.1 x 1394 = $448 compared to $695 for 20 grams of Chinese HAuCl4 (10 gms of gold ~ $2161USD/oz gold).
* Americans (not us Canadians) can buy Salt Lake Metals Gold Chloride Solution (1%) costing $100 for 1 gm of gold metal content. This translates to $100/1gm x 31.1 gms/oz = $3110USD/oz of gold. This is 2.2-times the cost of gold in today's market (for an ounce).
* Compare this with China's gold cost (via HAuCl4): $695/10gms x 31.1gms/oz = $2161/oz. This is ~31% less than Salt Lake Metals Gold chloride.
* Compare this with the cost of HAuCl4 (50%) from Sigma Aldrich ( https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/50790?lang=en&region=CA ) at $924CAD/5gms or $712USD/5gm * 4 = $2848 for the original required 20 grams of HAuCl4.

Does anyone have a better deal for Gold chloride than the Chinese (for Canadians without a business + business address + a great scientific/institutional excuse for the acquisition of this product)?

Of course, we have to deal with the issue of trust here as well. Who knows what standards are employed by various Chinese companies dealing with International customers ordering small quantities (one COA attached), but, I've done this once before with good results. It's either roll the dice again or stick with electrolysis which, as I recall, Kephra stated produces colloidal gold of lesser quality than the HAuCl4 recipe. Electrolysis does seem to be ~35% less expensive though (1394/2161) - 1 x -100)).

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: Neofizz on July 08, 2016, 02:46:10 PM
The Chinese price is low.

The only comment I can add is that their quality standard of minimum 47.8 sounds a bit on the low side.

The analysis form I have puts a spec of 48.50 - 50.25% on theirs, with confirmed analysis of 48.69% which is not really far from what you're getting.

I come back to purity. Mine is rated to be greater than or equal to 99.9% pure with trace metal spec less than 0.1% and analysis showing 0.05% (only Calcium and Zinc seem to be checked) which is 1/3rd what you have.

Still, if you've used it and it makes good looking colloidal gold.....
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 08, 2016, 03:01:23 PM
The gold weight percentage of gold chloride is 47.75% for gold chloride tetrahydrate.
For gold chloride trihydrate,its 49.95%
For gold chloride anhydrous its 58.02%

The percentage depends on how much water is in it.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: Neofizz on July 08, 2016, 03:35:03 PM
Mine was Gold (III) Chloride Trihydrate
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 09, 2016, 01:29:49 AM
Tetrachloroauric acid every time. I've attached a snapshot of extra info from the product web page, though that page contains contradictory information on "purpose" (catalyst or plating/photography). Typically there are contradictions on Alibaba product pages. It's part of the mystique, I suppose, or the joy of dealing with China.

Here's the product page as well: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Chloroauric-acid-Tetrachloroauric-acid-CAS-No_1764827196.html
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 09, 2016, 01:37:59 AM
Quote
that page contains contradictory information on "purpose" (catalyst or plating/photography).
They are bonafide uses for gold chloride. 


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/315486-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_0630_10ML_Gold_Chloride_1_Solution.html



Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 09, 2016, 02:16:47 AM
OMG! OMG! OMG! I wonder if the border-ban has been lifted? Or is "for photography" the secret passphrase for border crossings?

Here's their 100 mL bottle for $78USD: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/315491-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_0634_100ML_Gold_Chloride_1_Solution.html
They seem to have Salt Lake Metals beat. I suppose we need to ask them for a COA or some indication of purity/impurities...
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 09, 2016, 03:09:35 AM
Well I suspect their gold chloride is 1% gold chloride whereas Salt Lakes is 1% gold. Thats a big difference, and doubles the price in terms of gold.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 09, 2016, 07:19:25 PM
Heh. Yes, that makes sense. Oh well, had a nice moment of excitement there. It's now back to the consideration of Chinese Gold chloride, but, I'm thinking it's best to stick with electrolysis. Inferior quality be damned.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 17, 2016, 12:56:48 AM
Kephra,

I estimate a given quantity of gold from HAuCl4 is 2.84x MORE costly than the same quantity of gold from bullion (given a price of $60USD/gm for HAuCl4 @ 47.8% Au and $1370.25 USD / Troy oz of bullion at my local store).

My question is, in your opinion, is colloidal gold via microwave of ~2.84x better quality than that achieved through electrolysis? I believe you prefer your daily dose via the far more convenient former method  :)
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 17, 2016, 01:31:48 AM
Reducing gold chloride definitely makes a better product, but there is no way to quantify that.  The reduction method yields smaller particles of more consistent size I think.  But with practice and tuning you can do well with bullion.   Whether making from a bullion coin is cheaper depends on whether you already have the equipment.  I suspect that you do.  Personally, I prefer the ease of starting with gold chloride, plus my wife is able to do that process.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 17, 2016, 02:04:11 AM
Thanks for that reply K.

Yes, I have the equipment and I'm quite used to using your recipe to make 3 liters a go. I've also used the gold chloride method and appreciate the ease in that method too! I'm just trying to justify the convenience vs. the $$$. Bottom line: it's all about priorities, typically  :D
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: RickinWI on July 17, 2016, 02:43:01 AM
I estimate a given quantity of gold from HAuCl4 is 2.84x MORE costly than the same quantity of gold from bullion (given a price of $60USD/gm for HAuCl4 @ 47.8% Au and $1370.25 USD / Troy oz of bullion at my local store).

Don't forget, you most likely would not want to choose a 1 Troy oz .9999 coin for electrolysis since you want a small anode.   I'm thinking that a 1/10 ozt. coin or rectangular bar would be about right. When you purchase fractional gold in that way the cost per gram goes up noticeably.

However, if there is any question in your mind about what might be in the Chinese Gold Chloride then that would be a stronger argument for going the electrolysis route. If you start out with a 1/10 ozt. .9999 Canadian Maple (3.1 gm.) then you know for sure what's in there. 
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 17, 2016, 07:17:11 PM

Don't forget, you most likely would not want to choose a 1 Troy oz .9999 coin for electrolysis since you want a small anode.   I'm thinking that a 1/10 ozt. coin or rectangular bar would be about right. When you purchase fractional gold in that way the cost per gram goes up noticeably.


Thanks R. Would you remind me why it's BETTER to use a smaller gold anode? It's certainly cheaper to buy gold by the kilogram :) and my last gold anode was 1" x 2" foil welded to some other metal for plug-in convenience. Since it's been said here in the forum (and must therefore be true) that the gold anode need not be large, it seems to me that ideally it should be 1 mm wire, INSULATED. That would restrict metal removal to a controllable area and be damned convenient. I haven't found a local source of gold wire yet, but I did find this eBay entry:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sweetwater-9999-24ct-Gold-Wire-Pick-Your-Own-/150621993903?hash=item2311c53baf (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sweetwater-9999-24ct-Gold-Wire-Pick-Your-Own-/150621993903?hash=item2311c53baf)

Surely one need not buy from the UK. Is gold wire THAT under-utilized?  :-\
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: RickinWI on July 17, 2016, 08:23:40 PM


Thanks R. Would you remind me why it's BETTER to use a smaller gold anode?


Kephra would be able to answer that question WAY better than I would.  I have never made colloidal gold.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 17, 2016, 08:41:32 PM
The difference between silver and gold electrolysis is that silver oxide has very low solubility whereas gold chloride solubility is very high.  So you don't need a large anode area to prohibit precipitation in the anodes boundary area. 
Gold and silver also differ in the amount of electrons needed to create their compounds.  Silver needs one, but gold needs three.  So a small anode creates a higher density of chloride ions at the surface of the anode. 
Statistically, every electron (hydroxide) releases one atom of silver as silver hydroxide.
It takes 3 chloride ions to release one atom of gold as gold chloride.
Suppose a gold atom picks up one chloride.  Unless it gets another two, it will remain bound to the anode.  But that atom now has lesser charge to attract another chloride, and if it does, it will have even less charge to pickup the third.  So we want to concentrate the chlorides into as small an area as possible. 
To further add to the problems is that as the electrolysis is continued, the sodium chloride becomes used up and replaced by sodium hydroxide which will not make a soluble gold compound.  This is the reason that Faradays law does not predict an accurate run-time.

Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 17, 2016, 09:04:55 PM
Well that explains it! Thanks very much K. Those words make a nice addition to my colloidal gold notes. :)   And just in time too. I was looking for the best local bargain for a 1 oz gold bar. Now it's 1mm gold wire (preferably if unlikely insulated). Availability may be problematic, locally.

Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: RickinWI on July 18, 2016, 04:55:23 AM
I doubt that you will find .9999 gold wire that has insulation. I think you can accomplish the same thing though by just submerging it 1 cm or less.

After you get done pricing the gold wire, the price of the gold chloride won't look so bad anymore.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 18, 2016, 06:24:02 PM
I doubt that you will find .9999 gold wire that has insulation. I think you can accomplish the same thing though by just submerging it 1 cm or less.
I get quite a bit of evaporation during a run - probably a few cm so that wouldn't work for me. I typically top-up the beaker every 20-3 mins. I'm thinking that perhaps, if I can find the stuff, I could use glass tubing in a clamp and run the wire down through it well down into the solution and control wire exposure that way. I may have to rob the nearest high school chem lab.
Quote
After you get done pricing the gold wire, the price of the gold chloride won't look so bad anymore.
What? Why not? Do you think the premium on gold "wire" is going to be goofy-high? I've sent out a few queries but nothing back yet.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 18, 2016, 06:35:30 PM
1/20th of a troy ounce of gold wire costs $99.00 at present. (1.55 grams) which equates to $2000 an ounce.  That is a substantial premium.  For 20 gauge wire, thats $200 per foot.

Thats the best price I could find and I'm sure they won't ship out of the US.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 18, 2016, 07:26:34 PM
...which equates to $2000 an ounce.  That is a substantial premium...

Thats the best price I could find and I'm sure they won't ship out of the US.
Argghhhh! Always another barrier. So this appears to be the current state of affairs:

An Ounce of Gold:

I really need a local source of wire. Or Chinese? This just popped up in an Alibaba search:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-025mm-Pure-yellow-gold-AU_60491144999.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.qTXZX6&s=p

Price could be killer for 200 meters. I'll keep looking...
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: RickinWI on July 19, 2016, 12:47:32 AM
Too bad there's not a way to melt down a 1/10th ozt. .9999 Maple into wire.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 19, 2016, 01:25:03 AM
Too bad there's not a way to melt down a 1/10th ozt. .9999 Maple into wire.
(http://i.imgur.com/TYirWqU.jpg)
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 19, 2016, 01:38:31 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbeater%27s_skin
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 19, 2016, 01:54:43 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbeater%27s_skin
Finally a use for all the calf intestine I have lying around!
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 19, 2016, 06:50:32 PM
Gold bonding wire, or gold bump wire is used in electronics and sold, for example, here:
http://www.topline.tv/tanaka.html (http://www.topline.tv/tanaka.html)

The diameters used are tiny, I've seen a range of 15-500 microns.

I've found a source on Alibaba selling 0.025 mm wire at $105USD/gram with a 10 gram minimum totaling ~1000 meters!

QUESTION: what is a reasonable range of diameters suitable for our elecrolysis?
Another Q: is there an "ideal" diameter?
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: cfnisbet on July 23, 2016, 10:31:08 PM
Or do what I do: buy gold wire from Cookson Gold, (they ship worldwide), or buy a small gold bar I use a ten gram 999 fine bar and roll it out to a flat strip.

The second method guarantees purity and best value for money.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 23, 2016, 11:47:48 PM
Or do what I do: buy gold wire from Cookson Gold, (they ship worldwide), or buy a small gold bar I use a ten gram 999 fine bar and roll it out to a flat strip.
Cookson price is very close, so that's good. But they appear to sell in 50 gram reels and that's a bit more than I'm willing to spend at one time.

As for rolling a bar of gold into a strip - I have no idea why I'd want a flat strip of gold. You might have suggested extruding it into a wire myself. THAT would be acceptable were I capable.
Quote
The second method guarantees purity and best value for money.
No doubt about it  :)
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: cfnisbet on July 24, 2016, 04:05:13 PM
1 The shape is fairly irrelevant, just immerse a tiny bit in the DW. The idea is that a flat strip is easy to make and you would find it difficult to get a piece of pure Gold any cheaper. This is my chosen method, for that reason. You could roll out a small coin if you prefer. If, for some reason, you really want a wire shape, then it would be fairly simple to drill a hole in a piece of hardwood and pour molten gold into the hole, thus giving you a short rod. I can't see the point of going to that effort. A strip is quick and easy to make. Once it is thin enough, you could even use tin snips to cut off a narrower strip,  say about 3mm wide.

2 You are not correct about having to buy the Cookson Gold wire in a full reel. You can buy any length of the wire, 5 or 10 cm,  for example. The reel size is for bulk buyers as it encourages a buyer to take a whole reel if their chosen amount is close to a complete reel. That way, shipping is easier for the company, as they just drop a reel into the packaging and don't have to cut it. The last time I bought from them, I bought 15 cm.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 24, 2016, 04:44:09 PM
1 The shape is fairly irrelevant...
Shape no but cross sectional area is: http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3377.msg28387#msg28387 (http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3377.msg28387#msg28387)
Quote
2 You are not correct about having to buy the Cookson Gold wire in a full reel. You can buy any length of the wire, 5 or 10 cm,  for example.
Well that's good news. I'll give them a closer look and likely make a purchase from them soon.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: cfnisbet on July 24, 2016, 05:07:14 PM
I fail to see anything on the link which would imply that the end of a strip just touching the water surface, would in some way be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 24, 2016, 10:39:55 PM
I fail to see anything on the link which would imply that the end of a strip just touching the water surface, would in some way be a bad idea.
I can help with that. The way I make colloidal gold is in a 3-liter beaker at ~90-degrees C. I check the process every 20-30 minutes after which time the water level usually drops 1/2" or so. A barely submerged strip-end would no longer be submerged. My current method uses a strip electrode like the one you describe, however I submerge the gold strip (1/2" x 2") about 1/2" below the surface of the water. At intervals I just top off the water level to keep it fully submerged. I didn't realize colloidal gold quality could be negatively affected by electrode surface area, and, it was an electrode left over from my Biophysica CS1-12 machine.

The idea of using wire makes sense to me (if gold chloride is too difficult to acquire). I plan to try submerging a glass tube well below the surface of the water and passing gold wire through the tubing and out the end - only a bit out the end, say 1/2". That way I have no worries about an exposed anode (from evaporation) and I keep the anode surface area minimal as per Kephra's advice. The tubing just acts as insulation and support for the wire in the strong stirrer current of the beaker.
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: kephra on July 25, 2016, 02:13:17 PM
tseax:  Perhaps you could take your gold bullion, and coat it with an insulating material like fingernail polish or some other material that is impervious to hot water.  Then leave a small area at the bottom uncoated.  As the electrode wore, you could scrape off a little more insulator from the bottom. 

The coating would have to be something that could later be dissolved with some kind of solvent. 
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: tseax on July 25, 2016, 10:38:21 PM
Sounds like a good idea K. My original Biophysica electrode had something like that - "food grade" epoxy - at the weld point, presumably to prevent electrolysis of whatever weld material may NOT have been gold. The epoxy peeled off in the hot water though. I'll hold that idea for a future purchase now that I've (just, 3-minutes ago) bought 5 M of 0.5mm gold wire from Cookson Gold in the UK (thanks for the tip cfnisbet!).
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: bcboy on June 11, 2020, 04:13:04 AM
Or do what I do: buy gold wire from Cookson Gold, (they ship worldwide), or buy a small gold bar I use a ten gram 999 fine bar and roll it out to a flat strip.

The second method guarantees purity and best value for money.

Can you please share the method that you used to flatten your gold bars please? Thanks. :D
Title: Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
Post by: cfnisbet on June 11, 2020, 08:31:01 AM
Any jeweller should have a rolling mill. If not, then put it inside a piece of cardboard and hammer it flat. Gold is very malleable, to the point that a strip can be rolled out so thin that you can see through it.