Author Topic: First Colloidal Silver run today  (Read 11117 times)

SanchoPanza

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First Colloidal Silver run today
« on: June 26, 2015, 03:46:53 PM »
I will be doing my first colloidal silver batch today.
I made two "throwaway" batches to slough off any electrode contaminents, and check my system.
1 batch with wire anode, 1 with the coin.
Everything was in line with what I've learned here, so I think I'm ready to cook.

I hope my calculations are correct, for what I'm trying to do. (20ppm)

8 ga wire electrodes. (also have 1oz eagle anode).
2" electrode spacing
4.25" anode depth
1.5 cathode depth
Vigorous stirring. (deep vortex, without bubbles)



1800ml DW
1.8ml Na2CO3 (VDrop=35v to 9.5v)
9ma current
60 minute run time.
72 degrees.

I know i should be over 10v with a 2" spacing, but my sacrificial runs showed NO plating of the cathode.
Kephra's electrolyte formula appears to be spot-on!
Should I opt for less cathode, or more electrolyte, or leave it alone @~10v?

I reduced my test batches with agave syrup, as that's all I have ATM.
1 drop in 1800ml produced good yellow color, with very minor bluish tint.
Turbidity looked very clear, with laser, and focused beam flashlight.
Still looks the same after 24 hours.
Added a pinch of salt to 2 extra 100ml samples, they held up exactly the same overnight. (without added turbidity).
Adding vinegar after 24 hours turned them both reddish brown. (Thanks for the acid test idea RickinWI).

Both the wire, and coin anodes were completely blackened, but heated back to white-ish silver. (Thanks Kephra).
There was no precipitate in the unreduced, leftover IS after 24 hours, and none in the colloidal silver.

Am I on the right track?

-Sancho

« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 12:03:15 AM by kephra »

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 04:48:09 PM »
Thanks Kephra.
I was'nt sure what's more important, the electrode ratio, or the electrolyte ratio.
I imagine once I settle on a proper reducer, the electrolyte will become more important. (or less).
By using less cathode, does that mean that more of the sodium carb will remain in solution?

You posted a voltage formula for 3" spacing, and I settled on 2".
Should I be shooting for 13v now?
And will that slightly higher V reduce the black oxide on the anodes?
Or is totally black, on all sides OK?

Thanks again to the whole group, for helping me get this far, it will be an exciting day for me!
Wish me luck!

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 04:56:42 PM »
Quote
By using less cathode, does that mean that more of the sodium carb will remain in solution?
No.  The electrolyte is never used up and always stays in the solution.  Less cathode just raises the voltage for the same current (used with a current regulator).

More voltage helps scavenge the silver oxide from the anode.  I think what I said was that if you increase the electrode spacing, you have to increase the minimum voltage to produce the same electric field.  Its the electric field strength that moves ions from one electrode to the other, and that is volts per inch.  This becomes less important with a good stirrer though. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2015, 05:19:00 PM »
OK, I'll raise the cathode enough to get 13v.
Maybe that will reduce the anode oxidation?, or is 9ma simply to high for a wire anode.
The coin came out slightly cleaner than the 8ga wire.

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 05:48:27 PM »
Ok, but do not obsess about it.  If you are getting good results as judged by color and clarity, your setup is fine.  I use 12 gauge wire for an anode, usually only an inch and one half of it in the water.  It turns black, but its easy to clean and doesn't hurt anything. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: First run today
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 05:51:54 PM »
Sancho,   You said: "Should I opt for less cathode, or more electrolyte, or leave it alone @~10v?"

Just so you know if you added more electrolyte that would cause the Volts to decrease. (If your cell was running & you added a couple drops then you would see your V drop down.  Then you would have to compensate by raising up your cathode.)

Anytime you want your V to be higher just raise up the cathode a little like Kephra said. I figure 13V is perfect for the setup you described.

Here's another suggestion. This may not matter but it sounds like you are trying to get things perfect so here it is: Warm up your DW first a little before you start the electrolysis. Get it up into the low 80's (F.)  Reason being: The solubility of silver oxide in water (IS) given at WIKI is 13 PPM @ 68*F and 25 PPM @ 77*F. So if you get up to 20 PPM and you are @ 72*F then you may be slightly over the solubility limit until you reduce it to colloidal silver. Once you reduce it to colloidal silver this no longer matters so it is always a good idea to reduce your IS to colloidal silver right after the electrolysis is done. Even warming to the high 70's is just fine too cuz it will only loose a few degrees during the electrolysis.

After you have fully reduced your IS to colloidal silver you can then Cap the colloidal silver with Gelatin if it is for drinking. (Not saying you have to but I feel it's a good idea, as you know)
To cap it I would bring it up to a boil & add 0.8 gram of Gelatin. That's a little more than the minimum for 1.8L of 20 PPM colloidal silver.

Don't be concerned about the black oxidation on the anode. Just flame it back to silver in between batches. I just wipe my cathode off with a paper towel between batches since there is just a tiny bit of dust there. No need to torch. The reason the bullion coin would show less oxidation is simply because there is more surface area there. Probably the same amount of total oxidation but with the bullion coin it is spread out more. If you had no oxidation then there is something wrong so no need to be concerned about it or try to prevent it from happening.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 07:57:31 PM »
Thanks Rick, I will leave the electrolyte at 1.8ml:1800ml.
I'll pull the cathode until I get 13v.
You are correct about more electrolyte lowering the voltage. (that's what I meant).
I will warm the DW to 80, and I'm thinking I'll add the heater to my rig after all, which can get me up to ~110.
I just wasn't sure how much black there should be, it seemed excessive, but it melted right back, and there was no fallout overnight in the IS.

I  won't be capping anything until I have the rest worked out.
(and until you finish your capping/HCL experiments).  ;)
Lots of good info there, thanks.

-Sancho

Offline Gene

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Re: First run today
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 08:09:46 PM »
The black is silver oxide which is what you're making with the electrolysis cell BUT it needs to leave the anode and dissolve in the water.  Anything that does flake off if its substantial enough most likely won't dissolve and that wouldn't be good.

The issue with a thick black oxide is that it increases the resistance of the anode and then you need more voltage to overcome that higher resistance so your current limiter works properly.

At 5ma, 14 gauge silver wire submerged about 4" with a THIN (24 gauge) copper cathode, I have it maybe 1/4" below the surface and that gets me around 15V to start.  I do not stir but I do heat a bit to keep the solubility limit of silver oxide high enough I can make 30PPM (which I do, reliably).  By the end of the run do to the increased dissolved silver oxide in the water, the cell voltage has fallen to 11-12V, usually.  Then I immediately reduce before it cools down and squeezes silver oxide out of solution and precipitates it.  Once thats done, I'm good.

I heat to about 100-110F which is above the solubility limit for silver oxide at 30PPM in water.

But as others have said.  Just do it.  And play it by ear.  Its a balancing act - size of and submerged depth of the anode, the amount of electrolyte, the size of and submerged depth of the cathode, the desired cell voltage and current and probably a couple other parameters.  The only way you're going to get a good feel for it is to do it several times once you nail it, only changing one parameter per run and then not drastically, creeping up on where you want it to be or where you perceive it should be.  Its not hard though. You'll nail it on the first run given your attention to detail.  Then either you're satisfied or you start experimenting.  Keep us posted of your progress.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 08:44:52 PM »
The black is silver oxide which is what you're making with the electrolysis cell BUT it needs to leave the anode and dissolve in the water.  Anything that does flake off if its substantial enough most likely won't dissolve and that wouldn't be good.

Thanks Gene, that's why I was worried that some might fall off, and pollute my juice.


Quote
The issue with a thick black oxide is that it increases the resistance of the anode and then you need more voltage to overcome that higher resistance so your current limiter works properly.

Exactly. But I'm confident my circuitry can overcome any adversity there.  8)

Quote
At 5ma, 14 gauge silver wire submerged about 4" with a THIN (24 gauge) copper cathode, I have it maybe 1/4" below the surface and that gets me around 15V to start.  I do not stir but I do heat a bit to keep the solubility limit of silver oxide high enough I can make 30PPM (which I do, reliably).  By the end of the run do to the increased dissolved silver oxide in the water, the cell voltage has fallen to 11-12V, usually.  Then I immediately reduce before it cools down and squeezes silver oxide out of solution and precipitates it.  Once thats done, I'm good.

RickinWI uses warmer water too.
Now I should consider adding the heater to my rig, or use the stove.  >:(


Quote
I heat to about 100-110F which is above the solubility limit for silver oxide at 30PPM in water.

Good to know, If you can get to 30ppm at 110°, I WILL add the heater.

Quote
But as others have said.  Just do it.  And play it by ear.  Its a balancing act - size of and submerged depth of the anode, the amount of electrolyte, the size of and submerged depth of the cathode, the desired cell voltage and current and probably a couple other parameters.  The only way you're going to get a good feel for it is to do it several times once you nail it, only changing one parameter per run and then not drastically, creeping up on where you want it to be or where you perceive it should be.  Its not hard though. You'll nail it on the first run given your attention to detail.  Then either you're satisfied or you start experimenting.  Keep us posted of your progress.

Good advice.
I'll post a pic later!

-Sancho

Offline RickinWI

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Re: First run today
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 09:34:12 PM »
Thanks Rick, I will leave the electrolyte at 1.8ml:1800ml.
I'll pull the cathode until I get 13v.
You are correct about more electrolyte lowering the voltage. (that's what I meant).
I will warm the DW to 80, and I'm thinking I'll add the heater to my rig after all, which can get me up to ~110.
I just wasn't sure how much black there should be, it seemed excessive, but it melted right back, and there was no fallout overnight in the IS.

I  won't be capping anything until I have the rest worked out.
(and until you finish your capping/HCL experiments).  ;)
Lots of good info there, thanks.

-Sancho

If you really wanted less black on the anode all you'd have to do is cut your batch size in half. That would give you about half the amount of black on anode.  The other way to cut down on the amount of black on the anode is to cut back on your amount of electrolyte BUT that is DEFINITELY not worth doing for many reasons.

BTW: I prefer 80-85*F for the electrolysis. Don't like over 100*F as well (long story). I mean for making 20 PPM colloidal silver. I agree with Gene's point & if I was doing 30 PPM Colloidal Silver I would get it a little warmer (maybe about 100*F). Gene likes reductions to happen very quickly.  I'm more of a slow poke. (unfortunately in everything I do  ;)   The hotter it is for the electrolysis, the warmer it will be for the reduction just afterward. Warmer = quicker reduction.

My upcoming gel-cap experiment is just to determine the minimum amount for making way higher PPM colloidal silver.  Do this: Take 500 ml of your 20 PPM colloidal silver, bring to boil and add 0.20 grams of gelatin. Then let cool. Drinking it you will barely be able to tell it's in there.  Then get 2 small glasses & put your Capped colloidal silver in one & put uncapped in the other. Put the same amount of vinegar in each. Then add some salt to each. You will see with your own eyes why I advocate strongly for capping if it will be used for drinking. Bear in mind that Vinegar is NO WHERE near as strong as stomach acid. After seeing the results I think you'll be capping all your 20 PPM colloidal silver for drinking.

BTW: I would recommend staying @ 20 PPM at least for a while til you get used to things. For one thing doing everything the same except raising it up to 30 PPM will give you about 50% more black on the anode.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:49:33 PM by RickinWI »
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2015, 09:45:30 PM »

BTW: I prefer 80-85*F for the electrolysis. Don't like over 100*F as well (long story).


Ha Ha, Now you tell me, I'm almost done with my first batch done@ 105°.
Anode has the same amount of black so far, using 1/4" of cathode @13v-9ma, 18/1800 EL.


-Sancho

Offline RickinWI

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Re: First run today
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2015, 09:53:33 PM »
No big deal. I'm just splitting hairs.  But do stay at 20 PPM til you are used to everything. (just modified my previous post a little)
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2015, 10:07:30 PM »
I'm noticing bubbles on the anode that were not formed during cold runs.
I'm also using less cathode.
Why more bubbles?

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 10:12:43 PM »
I'm noticing bubbles on the anode that were not formed during cold runs.
I'm also using less cathode.
Why more bubbles?

-Sancho
The solubility of gases decrease with temperature. You should see more bubbles at the cathode, as hydrogen is released when Sodium metal that has been reduced at the cathode reacts with water forming more sodium hydroxide and hydrogen gas.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: First run today
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 10:21:06 PM »
Yes more H bubbles coming off cathode too. You may have to slow your stirrer down for a few seconds to see the H bubbles. I predict your IS will be slightly more reduced by the end of your electrolysis (it will be noticeably more yellow but nowhere near fully reduced). No big deal. You just have a head start on your reduction. It's the H bubbles coming off the cathode that are doing that reducing.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.