Author Topic: First Colloidal Silver run today  (Read 11112 times)

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2015, 05:07:23 PM »
Almost convinced.
So, which Karo works best, regular, lite, or sugar free?  ;)
They all seem like a good value, based on what's required to manufacture it.

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2015, 05:18:13 PM »
Only Lite is ok to use. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2015, 05:21:07 PM »
That should be Light, not Lite.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2015, 05:26:22 PM »
Light, not lite.
Thanks.

-Sancho

Offline RickinWI

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Re: First run today
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2015, 05:53:09 PM »
Sancho said: "Furthermore, it feels like Rick is pushing me out the door, just to steer me away from his secret Maltose weapon."

Just encouraging you to do at least a few batches with Karo first so you get a feel for what "normal" is for a sugar type reducer. It may turn out that using Karo produces the exact same result as using your agave so save some of your agave batch for comparison with Karo using your focused beam flashlight.

Then make a few more batches (or sub-batches) with your Cinnamon Extract. My experiments indicate that I get the best clarity & color out of my Cinn Ext by getting the IS very hot (about 180*F) after electrolysis, put it on stirrer and then add the Cinn Ext one drop at a time. The reduction goes fairly quickly so you can tell when it is fully reduced (stops getting darker).   If you compare that to your agave or Karo reduced I would expect it to be a little darker & when checked with the flashlight it should have a little less fog in the beam. Not sure why this procedure improves the clarity since it makes the reduction very fast? 

Some people hate the taste of the Cinnamon in colloidal silver but I love it & everyone in my family likes it too. Since you are not capping yet this MAY be the best choice for drinking since it is more protected because the cinn ext also caps the silver. If you drink a big glass of water 5 minutes prior to drinking the Cinn colloidal silver there is a good chance that the silver will survive the stomach environment. (much better chance than colloidal silver that was reduced with a sugar type reducer & not capped) all you need to prove that to yourself is some salt & vinegar.

Then you can move on to Maltose as your reducer. When you compare the Maltose vs the Karo (or agave) vs Cinn you will see that Maltose has the least fog in the beam. You will also see that Maltose & Karo produce the exact same shade of yellow if they are both fully reduced. The Cinn will be a darker shade of yellow but I think that is from the cap rather than larger particles? (maybe wishful thinking?)

So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2015, 06:17:15 PM »
I really like the clarity that cinnamon apparently produces, and the bonus capping effect.
I don't like having any residual flavors in the colloidal silver.
I also understand that cinn does not perform quite as well externally.

I'm feeling that sugar reduced would be a more "universal", single solution to fit my needs.
(OK maybe two solutions, capped, and uncapped).

I will now perform the obligatory 5 batches, before asking again for the secret MDR.
(Maltose Decoder Ring).

Rick said;  "do at least a few batches with Karo first so you get a feel for what "normal" is.

I may never know what normal is...
Mom says I'm special.

-Sancho

fishing4fun

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Re: First run today
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2015, 10:21:28 PM »
Hay Congratulations Sancho, its always pretty neat getting into this and doing more batches and figuring out what works best.
The people here are very helpful and seems the methods and ingredients used are advancing, into a time when we may need this information in the near future.
Keep up the good work.

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2015, 11:22:31 PM »
Hay Congratulations Sancho, its always pretty neat getting into this and doing more batches and figuring out what works best.
The people here are very helpful and seems the methods and ingredients used are advancing, into a time when we may need this information in the near future.
Keep up the good work.

Thanks again Fishing.
If fun is scratching your head in confusion, then yeah, this is a blast!
At least I can now put some silver on the scabs.   8)

-Sancho

SanchoPanza

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Re: First run today
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2015, 11:28:23 PM »
Look what I bought today!
Peer pressure sucks.
I feel cheap and dirty...

-Sancho

fishing4fun

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Re: First run today
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2015, 01:09:04 AM »
Yep it works every time, i still use it.
I make 95% colloidal silver for internal use and 5% of my batches are IS for external use.
I am still playing around with the chaga extract last several batches, still have not figures out why the anodes stay clean using that, i have done different tests with current changes etc no clue yet still working on it.

Offline PeterXXL

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Re: First run today
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2015, 11:46:42 AM »

Yes, they all work by oxidizing the aldehyde group on the end of the molecule.  (for one thing to be reduced, another must be oxidized).  The sugar is destroyed in the process changing into a sugar alcohol like xylitol and releasing carbon dioxide gas.  You have probably seen the tiny bubble of carbon dioxide on the side of the jar as the silver reduces.


But when reading about oxidation of glucose at different sources, incl. Wikipedia, the result is gluconic acid, like...

Ag2O + C6H12O6 --> Ag2 + C6H12O7

...and not sugar alcohols and carbon dioxide like you suggest...

Ag2O + C6H12O6 --> Ag2 + C5H12O5+ CO2

Please explain!lain.

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2015, 11:56:33 AM »
Yes, I know what is supposed to happen, but it definitely gives off gas which is not supposed to happen.  Conversion to gluconic acid does not involve giving off gas, so the end result cannot be gluconic acid unless the gluconic acid is an intermediate step.  When a difference between theory and reality exists, reality wins.

There are some possibilities though.

Fructose may react differently than glucose... corn syrup is half fructose. 

Silver is a very good catalyst for other chemical reactions.  It may be that silver catalyzes a reaction converting gluconic acid to a 5 carbon sugar alcohol and carbon dioxide.  This is exactly what the human body does, as all glucose is eventually completely oxidized to carbon dioxide.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline PeterXXL

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Re: First run today
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2015, 09:00:17 PM »
Hmmm.... I've read further.

Apparently, monosaccharides (glucose/dextrose, fructose, etc) are REDUCED to sugar alcohols called alditols or glycotols (whos name ends with -itol), where for instance D-Glucose is reduced to D-Glucitol, commonly called D-Sorbitol.

And monosaccharides are OXIDIZED to a carboxylic acid, where for instance D-Glucose is oxidized to D-Gluconic acid.

And Fructose is oxidized the same way as glucose as the carbon group moves from carbon two to carbon one in the molecule.

D-Glucitol  <--- Reduction --- D-Glucose --- Oxidization ---> D-Gluconic acid 
C6H14O6                  H2                         C6H12O6                      +  O                   C6H12O7

So whether a sugar alcohol (Sorbitol) is formed or gluconic acid is the result depends on whether Glucose is reduced or oxidized.

And in a reaction, if something is reduced it means that the reducing agent is oxidized, and the opposite, if something is oxidized it means that the oxidizing agent is reduced.

Ref:

Reducing sugars:
http://bhsu.edu/Portals/336/CHEM107/Chapter%2015-16%20October%2015thp3.pdf

Reduction of monosaccharides:
http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/GenChem2/B7/3.html
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 09:07:30 PM by PeterXXL »

Offline kephra

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Re: First run today
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2015, 11:22:34 PM »
Thats all well and good, but cannot be the case.  You have to account for the gas production which your formulas do not.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: First run today
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2015, 08:01:04 AM »
It does not seem likely that our sugar type reducers (Glucose, Fructose, Maltose, Karo, etc.) would themselves be reduced in the process of changing IS to colloidal silver. I would think that whichever glucose molecules did the actual reducing of Ag2O to Ag particles would be loosing an electron, not gaining.

Of course, since we typically put in way more than the bare minimum amount of reducer then it would be possible for a number of different reactions to be happening at the same time. Possibly some glucose would be REDUCED to Sorbitol as Peter suggests since in most cases there is still some H2 present after electrolysis.

One thing I have noticed is that if I use just the bare minimum amount of Maltose  (32 mg/L of 20 PPM) then I get very little reduction at all at room temp. (stays clear with a hint of PINK tint ! )  If I want to use Maltose to reduce @ about room temp (25*C = 77*F) then I have to use at least 4 or 5 times the stoichiometric amount of Malt. If I use even more like 7 times the stoich amount (0.23 gm/L for 20PPM) then I get the very least amount of turbidity of all the different reducers I have tried. I know I could get by with far less Maltose if I were to warm the IS before reducing, but then I would also get a little more turbidity. I am not talking about the type of turbidity that can be seen in normal lighting conditions or in sunlight. I am talking about the amount that can be seen in the beam of a strong focused beam flashlight in low ambient lighting conditions. (in other words, splitting hairs)

Other things I have noticed: As long as I used a sufficient amount of electrolyte to do the electrolysis then all the sugar type reducers turn out looking very similar to each other in normal lighting conditions. (Color & clarity)  However if you scrutinize them all with a focused beam flashlight then they all look very different from one another. The color that is reflected by the beam is different with each.
Some reflect different shades of blue in the beam and some reflect white or grey in the beam. I wonder if different reducers have different "side reactions" taking place at the same time?

Also wonder if the end products of those side reactions would account for the very different colors in the beams?

The various sugar type reducers I have tried are: Karo,  Pure Dextrose Powder (Glucose), Pure Fructose Powder, Lab Grade Maltose Monohydrate.  I suppose the "Monohydrate" may be the reason I need quite a bit more malt than the stoich amount you guys figured out. It may have sucked some water from the air by now too. At 25*C (77*F) the Dextrose Powder & the Fructose Powder reduce the IS to colloidal silver in seconds. The Karo reduces in about 10 minutes & The Maltose reduces in a few hours. Any time I am comparing these sugar type reducers I make a big batch of IS and split it into sub-batches to minimize other variables.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.