Tests of different Colloidal Silvers dissolved in Simulated Gastric Fluid

[fishing4fun]

Rick yea i use dual anodes in 8ga wire for 500ml runs then dual 5ga anodes for larger flasks 1000ml to 2800ml, They always look the same through out the entire process but i was extra careful in measuring the length of wire to the clips, Gene had mentioned that  a anode wire will not be 100% surface area used but after my runs even the back side away from the Cathode looks the same as the facing portion.
Hay what did you think of the Lecithin color?
very interesting to say the least imo
I think different types of reducers will change the color of the final product and the size of the silver particles, Lecithin is like a dirty dull green color, I might try acetic acid down the road once i do some more reading as it is a stronger reducer then Maltose, so that might change the color or size of the particles differently then Maltose, Karo Gelatin etc.

[kephra]

What is in the turbid flask and what is in the clear yellow flask?

[fishing4fun]

What is in the turbid flask and what is in the clear yellow flask?

The Turbid flask is 250 mg Sunflower Lecithin, electrolyte, 5ma current, ran for 36 min's, dual anodes, room temp water until half way when i turned on the heat on the stirrer, it started changing color from cloudy turbid solution before i turned on the heat, after the electric i added Karo reducer with no additional color change.


The clear dark yellow solution was made at 1ma, electrolyte, for 104 min's water at around 90 degrees, after electric i added 250mg gelatine and it did not change color until near boiling and continued the color change even after it boiled and i shut off the heat. That batch has no reducer in it as i have not reheated it to add karo yet to view any additional color change.

[RickinWI]

Rick yea i use dual anodes in 8ga wire for 500ml runs then dual 5ga anodes for larger flasks 1000ml to 2800ml, They always look the same through out the entire process but i was extra careful in measuring the length of wire to the clips, Gene had mentioned that  a anode wire will not be 100% surface area used but after my runs even the back side away from the Cathode looks the same as the facing portion.
Hay what did you think of the Lecithin color?
very interesting to say the least imo
I think different types of reducers will change the color of the final product and the size of the silver particles, Lecithin is like a dirty dull green color, I might try acetic acid down the road once i do some more reading as it is a stronger reducer then Maltose, so that might change the color or size of the particles differently then Maltose, Karo Gelatin etc.

 
I am not positive of this cuz I don't have any larger ga Silver wire, but I would imagine that if you look closely after 1/4 or 1/3 of the run is complete you would see more black on the side facing the cathode. Then as the run nears completion the back side does more & more of the work, eventually catching up to the front as far as amount of black oxide build up.  My current anode is 2 Maples wired together. Toward the start of my run only the front face has any black. Since I make fairly big batches (2.5L), by the time I am 2/3 of the way done the front is pretty black and then I start seeing the black working it's way around the edges and starting to coat the back surface too. By the end the back sides of my Maples look like a black circle with a silver center.

Agreed that your lecithin batch looks "Interesting" but I don't think I would be inclined to use it for drinking.

Dextrose (Glucose) & Karo are both stronger reducers than Maltose or at least MUCH faster reducers.  They will both reduce right at room temp in a fairly short amount of time when compared to Maltose. Dextrose is faster than Karo. The thing I like about the Maltose is that it produces the very least amount of turbidity when checked with a strong focused beam flashlight. The drawback is that it turns out a shade darker than Karo or Dextrose.

If you want to see that lighter shade of yellow that you seem to be hunting for just do this:
1. Put nothing in for your electrolysis except the electrolyte. Add 13 drops of EL  rather than 9 for 500 ml.  Do the electrolysis @ about 78*F.
2. After elec, add either Dextrose or Karo and stir.  No need to add more heat. It should fully reduce if you added enough reducer. Dextrose will fully reduce in a matter of minutes even though you are at room temp. Karo might take about an hour or more to fully reduce.  (You can double check that it's fully reduced the following day with your normal procedure of adding more reducer & heating it up.)

No matter which reducer you chose (Karo or Dex) I think you will have a VERY light shade of yellow. Then you can keep that batch for comparing your other experiments to.

[SanchoPanza]

Rick's idea is right on Fish.
It really helps a lot to have a "conventional" batch for experimental comparison.
Store it in a sealed jar and set it right next to every new batch you make.
Using that sample as a benchmark makes experimenting so much more productive.

BTW, did we ever establish if chaga was the cause of your clean anodes?
If you ever go back there, I would be curious to see a Chaga batch right next to your new, Karo benchmark!   

-Sancho

[RickinWI]

Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. I have the 1/10 M HCl Acid that I use along with some salt.

So I poured a whole Mason jar full in my capping Flask & turned the hot plate on high.  Added my 0.30 gm gelatin (working my way further downward).

Was planning on removing half as soon as gelatin was well melted. I figured between 120*F and 140*F.  Got a mandatory phone call & by the time I got back to hot plate it was already starting to bubble a little so it got away from me.  Still split the batch in half & let the other half go to full boil. Will test each half but not the test I was hoping for. Will do it right next batch.

As they are sitting there cooling I do notice a slight difference in color even though they were probably only 20*F different final temp. The one that went to full boil is slightly yet noticeably darker. (It had to have been fully reduced because I use about 6 times the stoichiometric amount of reducer that you and Peter figured out for us.)

Update: I re-did the capping and did it the right way this time so I could do my test. Test was successful & showed 2 things:
1. 0.30 grams of gelatin per Liter is sufficient for gel-capping already reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver.
2. Not necessary to bring to boil. Just have to get it hot enough to melt all the Gelatin.

Just to double check my acid & salt mixture I added 5 ml to about 40 ml of glucose reduced but uncapped colloidal silver.  Within about 10 seconds it changed to an orangish brownish color. After that it gradually went to clear with a slight reddish/purplish tint to it. (like clear water with tiny red particles in it) Took about 1/2 hour for that to happen.

I then capped the rest of the colloidal silver and once it cooled to about 100*F I re-did the acid test but used twice as much acid mixture so 10 ml with 40 ml colloidal silver. The gel-capped colloidal silver held up well overnight. 

My acid mix is 1 Part 1/10 M HCl acid that is supposed to be pH 1.0  mixed with 4 Parts DW.  I think this gives about 1.5 pH which is a little stronger than what would be in the stomach. I also add 1/2 gram of salt to 50 ml of the acid mixture.

Here's a tip for anyone wanting to gel-cap their already reduced Colloidal Silver: Add the gelatin to the colloidal silver when it is cool & then warm it up to melt the gelatin into the colloidal silver. If you get the colloidal silver warm or hot first then what happens is that the gelatin clumps when hitting the hot liquid and falls to bottom. Very sticky so it adheres to the glass. Then you will have to get it up to a boil to melt that clump into the colloidal silver.

If you add it when the colloidal silver is still cool then it spreads out on the surface in individual gelatin granules. Then it's only necessary to warm it up to get it to melt in. Can't tell you the exact temp, cuz I didn't want to gel-coat my thermometer, but if you watch closely you can see the granules melt away.

[SanchoPanza]

And low melting point is why "Jello Shots" don't store well, in your pocket.

-Sancho

[SanchoPanza]

In the kitchen, you can cheat a little by dissolving the gelatin in a small bit if boiling water, then adding to the cold solution.
The gelatin sets a bit "stiffer" that way. Not sure if that's the result of temperature shock, or more of a solubility thing.


-Sancho

[fishing4fun]

Sancho the anode being clean was more from the heat of the solution esp over 190 degrees, the chaga i am fairly sure it didn't come into play or if it did i think it was little.
Making a batch at a steady 195 degrees you will be making metallic silver that will have the lite yellow color when your process is over and if you take your anode out right after most all of that black will wipe off, where as a colder ran batch the black will be on there and you will have to fire clean your anode.
I would be doing a experiment but i need to get some more distilled water went through 20 gallons doing experiments and batches.
Rick i tried the cold run test you mentioned above and yes i did gain that yellow color only problem is when i heated it up to add the gelatin in the next day it changed before adding the gelatin to that darker yellow honey color.
I personally think that the different types of reducers along with heat and many factors determine the color and so far Karo, chaga, gelatine and maybe DManose (i have to redo that test) leave me with a light honey color. where as Lecithin reduced (even after Karo was added) to a dull greenish color.
These are the ones that i mentioned above that have reduced and changed the color i will be trying others in the near future.
As far as the Lecithin goes Peter showed us that it did hold up to his stomach acid test very well, I found that just adding the lecithin to water, electrolyte changed the clear fluid to a cloudy turbid water With out electricity added, so in making colloidal silver with it i Knew it was going to be Turbid right off the bat, i was not expecting it to change color at the lower temps and the color of the solution also, does this mean it shouldn't be used because it is very turbid? No we knew it was turbid from the start, Will i drink it? No further experiments need to be done with it before i will use it esp with that odd color.
I would like to experiment with different Reducers safe or not to view color changes, some of these i will not use because of toxicity but to me i want to know where are limits are on the particle size doing the lvdc process.

[RickinWI]

 When you did the cold run test I mentioned, which reducer did you use & how much of it?

[fishing4fun]

First post on this page http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2536.msg21607#msg21607
I used Karo.
When i get some more water i do another few tests, and double check the anodes through out the process to see if the back side is turning color as same as facing side.

[SanchoPanza]

Thanks Fish.
As much as I like the idea of the clean anodes,  it's just not worth the hassle of running at 190F.
It would only be slightly easier to actually trudge the woods, looking for anode mushrooms.   
I like your gelatin work though.

-Sancho

[RickinWI]

 OK, I think I know what's happening. I just don't know for sure why it happens. If you followed my advice and used extra EL and then reduced with Karo after the electrolysis then I think it WAS fully reduced at that point and it was that nice light yellow color we are talking about.

Then if you take that and boil it, yes it will get darker.  The longer you boil it, the darker it will get even if you add back in the evaporated water. My theory (and it's only a theory) is that when boiled the uncapped silver particles in the colloidal silver get crashed together so violently that some of them wind up "welding" together to form bigger particles. That would give the darker color. Might be some other reason though but it is caused by exposing the Karo reduced colloidal silver to extreme temps above 180ish*F.

That is exactly why I re-did my acid tests (see update 6 posts back) to find out if gently warming the gelatin to melt it was enough to have it coat the particles enough to protect them from the salty acid.  Basically I was having the same problem until just now. My sugar reduced colloidal silver looked great but then after gel-capping it the color got a couple shades darker (due to the fact that I was boiling to gel-cap it).

So to sum up: The day after you make Karo reduced colloidal silver you can double check to make sure it's fully reduced by adding more Karo & warming it to maybe 120*F. If it was fully reduced in the first place then I don't think that will darken it.

The darker color you are getting is being caused by the extreme temps, NOT because it wasn't fully reduced before.

It turns out that uncapped colloidal silver is rather Fragile. I don't know much about making higher PPM colloidal silver because I haven't done any where I put the reducer & capping agent in for the electrolysis, but I think that when doing it that way the silver particles are a little more protected since they are capped as they are being made.

I wonder what the minimum temp for making higher PPM colloidal silver would be?