Author Topic: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement  (Read 3227 times)

j.geeson

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2020, 10:36:02 PM »
It is a compact 3, a little square black metal box with the flask on top. Would be better in silver but only sold in black.

dlipter

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2020, 11:17:30 PM »
Nice!

Do you use the polarity reversal feature?

cfnisbet has commented in this thread that polarity reversal contaminates the product.

Offline ZeroLabs

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2020, 11:54:28 PM »
Reversing-polarity doesn't work well for the purity of the mixture, and it is very likely to contaminate the finished product.
Can you site any reference material to substantiate this claim? I find it an effective way to reclaim any silver that has plated out to the cathode on the previous half cycle. Unless you're saying what collects to the cathode is not silver? Where exactly would these contaminants come from?

dlipter

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2020, 12:19:00 AM »
Why use an electrolyte?

You can set the current to 100ua and let the machine run 8 hr and obtain a high quality pure product without any electrolyte.

You can also set the current to a value of 1ma/square inch of the wetted electrode area.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2020, 01:08:47 PM »
Technically, yes. But there will be more plate-out on the cathode, and more silver may be wasted. Also, the electrolyte is less than that consumed in a slice of cake, and is the same chemical, so there really is no need to not use it; however, if that is what you want to do, go ahead and do both then compare them. If you don't want to use an electrolyte, you will get much better results if you use nearly-boiling distilled water.

Offline ZeroLabs

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2020, 01:49:47 PM »
The contaminants come from the:
Water... even distilled water is not absolutely pure.
The electrolyte, The reducing agents none of which are 100% pure.

In normal operation, these contaminants tend to go to the cathode while the anode remains pure unless polarity switching is in effect.
Hmm. I've been happy with what appears to be excellent quality so far but I may have to rethink it going forward. Thanks.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2020, 01:59:42 PM »
There is no problem with you doing what works for you, but polarity-switching also makes it difficult to calculate the exact ppm; you have to allow for the time lost due to the collapsing voltage.

It's just another difficulty in a process which is already very misunderstood by many people. Polarity switching is mainly used by those who are making Ionic Silver Oxide, as it does reduce the silver plate-out (most people who make machines don't recommend the use of electrolyte).

There's no law against it, but our method has been shown to work reliably and well, so it's what we recommend. If I was stuck in the outback of Africa and only had a colloidal silver machine that did polarity-switching, I wouldn't complain; but the last machine I had which did this, cost three times more than a home-constructed colloidal silver setup.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 02:16:35 PM by cfnisbet »

dlipter

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2020, 10:50:46 PM »
Upon hearing of the SilverTron being discontinued, I went looking for a suitable generator as a replacement.

The following is a summary of of what I found.

The generator that most closely resembles, and is consistant with the SilverTron design and methodolgy is the SilverBear.

You input the water volume, current limit, electrode area, desired PPM. Once started, the unit calculates the actual amount of silver added to the solution and shuts off when the set PPM is reached. I am satified that both the SilverTron and SilverBear use the same methodology to determine the endpoint of silver production.

There are differences between the two.

The SilverTron starting voltage is 28v while the SilverBear is 35v.
The SilverTron offers 0-15ma current limiting with a 1mA step between values, The SilverBear offers 100uA to 8mA current limiting.
The SilverTron has no Stirrer, the SilverBear has a built in magnetic stirrer.
The SilverBear has an optional software controller, run on a laptop that allows a wide range of programming options, the SilverTron is stand-alone only.
The SilverBear offers a what looks like a beautifully designed electrode holder and Erlenmeyer Flask, no alligator clips here!
The SilverTron allows a ppm range of 20-320ppm, the SilverBear only allows an automated maximum ppm of 30.
The SilverBear has a water test function that measures ppm, the SilverTron offers no such function.

Now that there is talk of a resurrection of the SilverTron, a choice will have to be made!
Not sure which way I will go.
Thoughts and comments welcome.


Offline ZeroLabs

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2020, 02:01:50 AM »
The SilverBear has already been discussed on the forum and found to have real flaws. The water test ppm function alone should throw up all kinds of red flags for everyone looking at it. Silver PPM can not me measured accurately using the conductivity of the water alone. Too many variables skew the results. Accurate PPM is only derived computationally based off Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis and monitoring the process closely until the desired PPM is reached.

But it sure does look slick. I'm sure they sell a ton of them based on appearance alone.

My $0.02.

dlipter

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2020, 03:51:44 AM »
I searched the forum and could not find any discussion of either SilverBear or Silver Bear and its flaws. I would love to read the account of where these flaws are discussed.

The Silver Bear does not derive silver PPM using the conductively of water alone. The below quote clearly states they are using Faraday values.

"mASec/PPM/ml.
This is effectively the master calibration for the unit. It defines how many milli amps are required for 1 second to generate 1PPM of silver ions. Setting this higher will make your solutions stronger, setting it lower will make it weaker. The actual Faraday values are based on the current and the molecular  weight of silver. As some of this energy is used to plate the cathode and then un-plate it with each reversal, this value will be larger than the calculations suggest. If you are confident with your knowledge of the chemistry, this value can be tuned. Otherwise leave this one alone."

The PPM water test function is only a conductivity test to assess the water quality ( by measuring the presence of charged minerals) before starting. It is not a silver PPM test.

P.S. Zerolabs, Looking for the truth here, so any references supporting or expanding on your claims would be of interest.

Offline Turbidaceous

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2020, 01:47:14 PM »
This forum is epic and has had (and hopefully continues) excellent guidance and instruction by someone who knows what they are doing. This forum is a treasure-trove of information. Truth is in the eye of the beholder, proof is for whisky. Perhaps the Silver Bear was discussed on the old forum, which apparently there was an old forum. If you follow the instructions you will get a good colloidal silver. If someone who's been here a long time says a device is crap, I'd be satisfied taking them at their word. If they are wrong, someone will contradict them.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2020, 02:29:25 PM »
Here is the reason why I can't suggest the Silverbear as an adequate replacement for a SilverTron.

If it measures amount of silver put into solution, but has no suggested method of reducing the Ionic Silver Oxide to Colloidal Silver, then you can't make anything stronger than approximately 25 ppm due to the Ionic Silver Oxide being limited by the solubility of the Ionic Silver Oxide itself.

Secondly, up to 20ppm or so, without an electrolyte some or most of the silver will be plated out onto the cathode. Unless the Silverbear accurately counts the coulombs of energy put into solution, the polarity-switching will ruin the calculation of the amount of silver in solution. If the Silverbear sets the cut-off point by the conductivity of the solution, then it is no different to the SilverGen generator, which is no better than judging the product by eye (which you can do, if you are experienced).

By all means buy one if you want, but I have spent over 1000 GBP on generators, and none of them, repeat none, were as good as a standard laboratory PSU with an ammeter and a stopwatch. It is not just the SilverTron which is so good at what it does, it is the combined method of large silver anode - heat or stirring - timed and measured one-way constant current - electrolyte - food-safe reducing and capping agent; all of these things are cheap and easy to measure using a standard PSU and the reagents which we recommend.

Everything else is reinventing the wheel.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 03:12:34 PM by cfnisbet »

Offline Turbidaceous

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2020, 02:46:49 PM »
Speaking of reinventing the wheel :) The best wheel in the world is no longer being produced and I am eagerly looking forward to tutorials on builds for home systems. Hopefully there will be a low cost easy one as well as a more complex hobbyist type?

Offline ZeroLabs

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2020, 05:11:19 PM »
Speaking of reinventing the wheel :) The best wheel in the world is no longer being produced ...
You're in for a nice surprise.  8)

Offline Turbidaceous

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Re: Recommendations for a SilverTron Replacement
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2020, 06:18:56 PM »
Even if it were to be re-made it would be far outside my price range and most likely international (I am in the UK)