possible 40ppm IS

[emanwols]

Thank you all
I think it is back to the articles section for more studying
I was of the opinion that the more of my electrodes(both silver rods) i have submerged the better as long as i can maintain 10v minimum. seems i got that wrong.
However if i do not mind plateout on one or both electrodes how does this affect the quality of the silver solution. This question is not to challenge those in the know, i just do not understand why it would make for substandard silver solutions.

[kephra]

I was of the opinion that the more of my electrodes(both silver rods) i have submerged the better as long as i can maintain 10v minimum. seems i got that wrong.

But you didn't have 10 volts minimum.
Ideally, you would want the electrodes to be unequal length with the negative being shorter and the positive being longer.  But since you are stuck with useless polarity switching, you cannot do that.

Why would you want to tolerate plateout?  If you use the correct amount of sodium carbonate, you will get very little.  If you don't, you cannot accurately judge the ppm of the solution.

Suppose I ordered 100 soldiers (sodium ions) to guard the entire Great Wall of China (cathode).  There would be huge spaces for enemies (silver ions) to sneak across the wall.  But if I had enough soldiers to cover every 3 feet, it would be very difficult for the enemies to sneak across.  With less wall (cathode), I would not need as many soldiers to protect it.

[Bobby]

Kephra,

  WOW that was a great visual on electrolyte vs electrode length vs plate out vs ppm!  That was perfect. 

Bobby

[emanwols]

Yes superb analogy
What began to lead me on the wrong path are two things:
1: i was unable to maintain 10v with my generator set at 10mA but i could when i set it to 15mA which i did not really want to do.
2: i watched a youtube video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u0EuQ00IQY
     posted by someone called Dean Lindsey who i think is a member on this forum. at the start of the video he started a batch without EL and the volts were 29v and mA was zero, he then added 9 drops of EL to 500ml of DW, restarted the process and the mA immediately went up to 15mA and volts dropped down to around 20v.
So i thought to myself if he is using a lot less EL than i am using and he is attaining the required current with a slight voltage drop at the start of the process then all i had to do in order to increase my voltage while immediately achieving my desired voltage at the start of processing was to reduce my usual EL amount of 54 drops per 2230ml to 15 drops
All i was thinking of was getting the set current immediately at the start of the process and upping my voltage.- nothing else, hence my willingness to accept plate out due to reduced EL quantities.

[kephra]

54 drops is the correct amount if you measured your sodium carbonate dilution properly.
Your problem is too much cathode in the water.

You could correct/disable the polarity switching by running the output of your generator to a full wave bridge rectifier and the output of that to your electrodes.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge

[emanwols]

Once again thank you for all your replies Kephra
I have sent emails to two members on this forum who i think reside in UK in the hope that they can give me an idea of import tax and other costs involved in importing your silvertron elite.
I am still waiting to hear from them. I hope the email function on the forum is working.

[emanwols]

How far do you think i can sensibly push these rods in terms of raising the current going through them?

My calculations for 7 Gauge show: with ONE INCH (25.4mm) of ANODE in the water, the optimum cathode (in-water length) is: 7.5mm and the MAX STILL WATER current is 4.45 ma.

THAT means it would be a VERY good idea to be using a stirrer cranked up as Kep described.

Hi wayneInPHX
can you please explain how you made that calculation and also how you determined the resulting max current.
my calculation is giving me 0.46sq inches or 30.2sq mm for a rod diameter of 3.5mm
Thanks

[emanwols]

I do not believe that i forgot to take note of ambiet temperature.
when i make a batch of 2230ml of IS i heat up a 500ml flask in the microwave for  3mins 50 secs then i add this to room temperature DW to get a temp of around 27*C and the resulting IS is always crystal clear up to around 40ppm with ambient indoor temp of around 20*C
However we in UK have in the last week or so have been experiencing a "heatwave" with ambient temps of 30*C. Following my usual procedure as above means the DW is now much hotter than i am used to(37-40*C)
i now think that the pale golden colour( no maltodextrin added) is simply partial reduction of IS by the higher temperatures that i am not accustommed to.
The silver solution is still totally crystal clear with no turbidity issues.
Every batch i have made recently with differing amounts of EL and mA ranging from 7 to 30mA have all turned out the same colour.
The only difference between my previous clear as water batches and these very pale yellow is higher than normal ambient temps.
So i hope i am correct in my assumptions
Now i just have to find some diodes to cancel out my reverse polarity.The raised (shortened electrodes) has cured my low voltage problem.
Cheers

[kephra]

You can make the full wave rectifier bridge easily with 4 1n914 or 4 1n4001 diodes.  Probably the 1N4001 diodes would be easier because they are physically larger with sturdier leads.

[emanwols]

I have not yet got round to cancelling out reverse polarity but your advice on shortening the submerged electrodes has been great. i am now getting a minimum of 10volts.
Just made some Maltodextrin reduced colloidal silver with 44 drops of EL for 2230ml of DW with starting temp of 34*c for 46minutes with strong magnetic stirring.
First picture is halfway into run , second is end of run and third is an example of the crap i have been producing and consuming.
I do have a question -- if i got a more powerful constant current and voltage regulator will i get similar results if my electrodes were fully submerged (8 inches in DW) as opposed to 4 inches submereged now.something like this  http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/80w-switched-mode-dc-multi-voltage-slim-bench-power-supply-n27gg or this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06X9DD4HJ/ref=sxr_pa_click_within_right_1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=1325019647&pf_rd_r=RRMA0MT18YCJZ54H3V3Y&pd_rd_wg=s5lfy&pf_rd_s=desktop-rhs-carousels&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=Jcysc&pf_rd_i=power%2Bsupply%2B30v&pd_rd_r=SZZXSG99G5BPG778ME71&th=1 so that i can produce larger batches
Not able to add other pictures as attachments so i have sent only the finished product of 40ppm at 30mA

[skcs]

If you don't, you will have substandard colloidal silver and not be able to able to judge ppm.
Member gandolf demonstrated what happens with low voltage, and confirmed my statements.

First, you should verify that your sodium carbonate solution is correct.  It should be 10.6 grams per 100ml of water. 

In the articles, a note at the bottom of "Part 2" says 12.4 grams of sodium carbonate with water added to make 100ml. Hmm... so is it 10.6 or 12.4? 

I bought the big box of the  A&H super washing soda.  If you make your own from baking soda is the amount the same also?  I might make some just to compare the taste.

Does either washing or baking soda suffer seriously from aging?  (for the purpose of Colloidal Silver generation)

 

[WayneInPHX]

How far do you think i can sensibly push these rods in terms of raising the current going through them?

My calculations for 7 Gauge show: with ONE INCH (25.4mm) of ANODE in the water, the optimum cathode (in-water length) is: 7.5mm and the MAX STILL WATER current is 4.45 ma.

THAT means it would be a VERY good idea to be using a stirrer cranked up as Kep described.

Hi wayneInPHX
can you please explain how you made that calculation and also how you determined the resulting max current.
my calculation is giving me 0.46sq inches or 30.2sq mm for a rod diameter of 3.5mm
Thanks

I JUST read this post today 7-4-17   

I developed a spreadsheet calculator (78 HRS in the making) for colloidal silver production which provides values for Maltodextrin, Gelatin, Dextrose, Anode length, temp conversion, Production cost, labels and more.  It isn't available to the masses HERE only because learning the production process from the foundation up is so very important.  FIRST, continue to get all your ducks in a row and start REPETITIVELY producing good quality stuff.    You're in Colloidal Boot Camp Soldier!  BUT, here's some gumdrops for ya sweet-tooth...

In the calculator 3.5mm Wide / 102mm IN WATER,  1121.55mm Anode surface area, Optimal Cathode (SAME SIZE ROD ONLY) 30mm , MAX STILL WATER CURRENT: 17.38 mA

This is all based on 10mA per 645.16 Sq mm (1 sq Inch) as suggested by KEPHRA in article:
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3628.msg30638#msg30638

Here is the COMMENTS field for "OPTIMAL CATHODE (IN-WATER) LENGTH" in the calculator
Optimal Cathode (in-water) Length

This number represents the correct length in mm the CATHODE wire should be in the water based on the number of square millimeters the Anode has on its surface.

                                             1
It uses the formula:        -------------   X  LengthOfRod
                                     ( 2.72 / 0.8 )

PLEASE NOTE:  This value works ONLY when both your Anode and Cathode are the same sized wire rod.  It will be inaccurate for any other configuration.

This value is determined by the following variables:    .8 Vdc at boundary layer to be able to blow-off ions from the anode, 2.72 Vdc to reduce sodium @ cathode.  A total of 3.52 Volts required absolute minimum potential. This however doesn’t take into consideration the voltage drop across the solution, just the boundary layer on the anode and the voltage required for sodium at the cathode.  Often, 10V is stated to provide the most universal fool-proof minimum to ensure that the 3.5 volts is achieved while covering whatever voltage drop occurs in the electrolyte in the water..  Experienced folks can often make perfect colloidal silver with less than 10V.

THAT should make you hungry.

[Bobby]

skcs,

  You will want to read "https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2019.0" in the same section on baking the baking soda before the mixing.  That will answer your questions on electrolytes pretty simply.  I personally prefer the baked baking soda because it mixes so easy.  Then just put your extra powder in a sealed
Mason jar for later use.  Just cook it hot enough and long enough in a glass pan and you will probably never have to do it again.  I use 10.6 grams of baked baking soda in enough DW to make 100 mL.  Take your time and be very accurate.

  The forum is really well setup and easy to search from the main page.  I've read the articles so many times I've lost track.  But I learn something new every time I do.  And you will get the help you need if you treat everyone with the same respect that you would won't.

  Looking forward to hearing about your exploits! 🤔

Bobby

[emanwols]

Hello wayneInPHX
Thanks for reply
I am now running those dual silver rods with 115mm submerged at 30mA with strong enough magnetic stirring to cause a vortex in a 2000ml erlenmyer flask
So far the results appear to be very good. for the first time ever i find the my silver rods after the run are almost as shiny before i started (30mA for 46mins with initial DW temp of 35*c and no futher heating with 1/2 tsp maltodextrin added at start) and also the closest i have ever been to the colour of Johnsons baby shampoo
Before shortening the submerged length i had to very thoroughly scrub my silver rods to get rid of deposits and then i was only getting around 4volts across electrode. now i consistently achieve between 9v and 10.8 volts.
On a side note i have not seen Kephra chimming in with any comments on any posts for a few days . I hope he is good and well.
Cheers

[skcs]

skcs,

  You will want to read "https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2019.0" in the same section on baking the baking soda before the mixing.  That will answer your questions on electrolytes pretty simply.  I personally prefer the baked baking soda because it mixes so easy.  Then just put your extra powder in a sealed
Mason jar for later use.  Just cook it hot enough and long enough in a glass pan and you will probably never have to do it again.  I use 10.6 grams of baked baking soda in enough DW to make 100 mL.  Take your time and be very accurate.

  The forum is really well setup and easy to search from the main page.  I've read the articles so many times I've lost track.  But I learn something new every time I do.  And you will get the help you need if you treat everyone with the same respect that you would won't.

  Looking forward to hearing about your exploits! 🤔

Bobby

Thanks for the help.  Problem I'm having is seeing different amounts and not sure which to use. Like I mentioned, the articles part 2 says 12.4 grams to make 100ml, but the other link says 10.6 grams to make 100ml.  I have the store bought box of Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda which I thought is already sodium carbonate. 

Aha - something in the "Here are some formulas and methods to get started" recipies clears it up (maybe... I added the bolding to the quoted information)

To Make Anhydrous Sodium Carbonate

Heat either washing soda or baking soda in a heatproof glass container in an over at 350F for at least 30 minutes

To make 1 Molar Sodium Carbonate

Dissolve 12.4 grams sodium carbonate monohydrate in enough water to make 100ml solution.
    -- OR --
Dissolve 10.6 grams sodium carbonate anhydrous in enough water to make 100ml solution.

Normal usage would be 1 ml  per Liter of colloidal silver.

So, I guess the A&H super washing soda is actually sodium carbonate monohydrate.  After you bake EITHER that or baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) then you end up with sodium carbonate anhydrous 


Whew! So many details in here that it's easy to miss and/or misread.


a) A&H super washing soda from box: 12.4 grams with DW to make 100ml

OR

b) Heated baking soda OR heated A&H super washing soda: 10.6 grams with DW to make 100ml

Does my above 'a' or 'b' sound correct?