Author Topic: What is everyone using these particles for?  (Read 10044 times)

synthesis

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What is everyone using these particles for?
« on: May 10, 2012, 09:09:04 AM »
I am just curious as to what people are using these gold nanoparticles for? As I am reading thru alot of these post and I would like to congratulate everyone for their hard work in making these particles. But these gold nanoparticle that everyone makes has no significant purpose... the reason I say this is because the the gold nanoparticle is not mono disperse what so ever it can not be use for any scientific testing. What is the significant reason for people on this forum making them for?

Offline kephra

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2012, 11:46:18 AM »
I am just curious as to what people are using these gold nanoparticles for? As I am reading thru alot of these post and I would like to congratulate everyone for their hard work in making these particles. But these gold nanoparticle that everyone makes has no significant purpose... the reason I say this is because the the gold nanoparticle is not mono disperse what so ever it can not be use for any scientific testing.
Actually, they are pretty good.  Made correctly, they are very uniform in size and shape.  In any event, we do not make them for scientific testing.  We make them for health reasons.  In particular, I make them to help my arthritis.  Another member on this forum used them break his alcohol addiction.  That was one of the purposes gold treatments were used for long ago -- breaking addictions... It was part of the Keely cure.  There was a pilot study done also that showed that gold nanoparticles increased cognitive functions.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

synthesis

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 06:02:24 AM »
Kephra,
I am just curious as to how much of these nanoparticles are you drinking a day? Please be careful ingesting high amounts of these gold nanoparticles. FDA has never yet approve of any type of use of gold nanoparticle as a medical treatment. The human body itself does not have a pathway to process high amounts of gold nanoparticle. Also, size control and mono dispersion of gold nanoparticle is extremely hard to do at home.... I don't want to sound rude or mean, but can you show me your method in synthesizing perfect mono disperse 30nm nanoparticles? Because their is no way it will be monodisperse synthesizing with a stir plate and a heating unit...

ShivaDestructor

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2012, 09:39:39 AM »
FDA has never yet approve of any type of use of gold nanoparticle as a medical treatment.

So FDA is a trustworthy honorable organization?

Should everything you use be approved by the FDA? Remember the traditional pathway of medicines:
A) Plant X is used by "witch"/"medicine man" for curing disease
B) Plant X use is considered quackery yet thousands swear by it and use it
C) Plant X use might even be forbidden and organizations like the FDA might forcefully shut down operations producing/using/selling it
D) Plant X is picked up by the medical industry, refined and/or synthesized, and the process patented
E) Plant X is now drug Y, exclusive to company Z - and touted as a new invention and sold for megabucks

During this process a lot of people might suffer a lot.

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The human body itself does not have a pathway to process high amounts of gold nanoparticle. Also, size control and mono dispersion of gold nanoparticle is extremely hard to do at home.... I don't want to sound rude or mean, but can you show me your method in synthesizing perfect mono disperse 30nm nanoparticles? Because their is no way it will be monodisperse synthesizing with a stir plate and a heating unit...

From most of the research reports I've seen even the labs with all their additivies and high-end equipment have a normal distributed size of the nanoparticles, and they seem satisfied with that. There is currently no knowledge about a "perfect" AuNP size, so having a size distribution just seems like a good thing. The color is very telling. A clear color = tight size. Color spectrum = size hint.

Regarding the process, many of the researchers are just using a stir plate and a heating unit, using for instance the Turkevich process. I don't see what your getting at. You seem to have criteria that don't apply to what people are doing here. I've read reports where researchers take the most difficult paths of producing AgNP, and they end up with the same result as the quick, simple, time-tested, frequently used Turkevich process (or like the Na2CO3-process with reducing sugars). Done correctly - clear, uniform color, no chloride ions left.

If you are aiming at drying and selling a guaranteed product labeled 30nm AuNP and 40nm AuNP in two different bags, then the approach here is not good enough, but that is not what is going on here.

/J

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 12:27:24 PM »
Brilliantly-put comment, ShivaD.
So FDA is a trustworthy honorable organization?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Should everything you use be approved by the FDA? Remember the traditional pathway of medicines:
A) Plant X is used by "witch"/"medicine man" for curing disease
B) Plant X use is considered quackery yet thousands swear by it and use it
C) Plant X use might even be forbidden and organizations like the FDA might forcefully shut down operations producing/using/selling it
D) Plant X is picked up by the medical industry, refined and/or synthesized, and the process patented
E) Plant X is now drug Y, exclusive to company Z - and touted as a new invention and sold for megabucks

During this process a lot of people might suffer a lot.
Spot on.

The above process also leads to absurd contradictions, for example in Sweden, Colloidal Silver is not allowed to be offered for sale to treat any disease, not can anyone suggest it be consumed orally. However, you can sell it to purify water, because it (demonstrably) kills all pathogens in the unpurified water (and this is accepted as a marketing claim). How is one expected to drink the purified water without also consuming the Colloidal Silver?

All part of the madness encouraged by those who believe they should be our lords-and-masters.

Offline kephra

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 01:19:23 PM »
Kephra,
I am just curious as to how much of these nanoparticles are you drinking a day? Please be careful ingesting high amounts of these gold nanoparticles. FDA has never yet approve of any type of use of gold nanoparticle as a medical treatment. The human body itself does not have a pathway to process high amounts of gold nanoparticle. Also, size control and mono dispersion of gold nanoparticle is extremely hard to do at home.... I don't want to sound rude or mean, but can you show me your method in synthesizing perfect mono disperse 30nm nanoparticles? Because their is no way it will be monodisperse synthesizing with a stir plate and a heating unit...
I consume about 10mg of gold Np per day, which is not a high amount.  Pilot studies have been done using 30mg a day for a year, with no negative results in blood chemistries or other biology.

You can buy colloidal gold in most health food stores, its just terribly expensive.

The FDA is a joke.  Vioxx was an approved medical treatment, and was estimated to kill between 27000 and 55000 Americans.  The Vietnam war only killed 50000 Americans.  When Prozac was concocted, the original testing on 18 employees resulted in 1 suicide by an 18 year old employee, yet it was approved, and there were many subsequent suicides because of Prozac and its cousins.  It took years before the FDA even acknowledged the problem.  Stevia has been used all over the world as a sweetener without harm, but unapproved by the FDA until recently, yet toxic aspartame was allowed to jump right into the market.  The purpose of the FDA is to insure mega profits for big pharma, not to provide effective, safe medical care for the populace.

I am only alive right now because I ignored the FDA.  22 years ago my doc told me I needed a bypass operation because of blocked arteries.  I was to the point where I could not walk up half a flight of stairs.  I chose the unapproved non-invasive chelation treatments instead, and was back to normal after 8 treatments.  A later cardiac exam showed that I had no plaques in my coronary arteries after 40 treatments.  None of my older friends who had bypass operations survived more than 10 years after their surgery, and I have read that the average life of a bypass is less than that.  I am the first male in my family tree to live past 52, since the late 1800's and its because of unapproved chelation treatment.  My brother dropped over dead at the young age of 52.  So tell me again why I should care about the FDA?

Right now, because of the FDA, I am pretty crippled.  The FDA approved the Lymerix vaccine without sufficient testing, and the vaccine caused untreatable severe arthritis in 30% of the people who took it.  Anyone with haplotype DR-4 became crippled because the vaccine caused the immune system to attack joint cartilage.  Thats at least 5000 people destroyed before the vaccine was removed from the market.  The first joints affected in me were my thumb joints, then my knees.  Doctors can't treat it, so we are left to our own devices.  Colloidal gold, monodisperse or not, allows me to function.  If I stop taking it, the pain in my joints becomes crippling.  If I take it, I'm close to normal for my age. 

So as far as I am concerned, the FDA is irrelevant.  They are not reliable.





There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 07:20:06 PM »
So as far as I am concerned, the FDA is irrelevant.  They are not reliable.
My gosh, Kephra, that's being polite! Clearly a gentleman. My thoughts after reading your comments were unprintable.



kscmac

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 12:15:30 AM »
Which did you use to help clean out? My uncle had a bypass and luckly his physical training did more for him he is now 79. I am curious which treatment you used. I am putting various items into a small book for my kids and grandkids. It seams that information that I could get 20 years ago is now missing, so I am putting it into a book that wont electronically crash!

Offline kephra

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 12:23:26 AM »
It was intravenous EDTA plus vitamin B, magnesium and a few other ingredients which I don't remember.  EDTA is the important one though, as it scavenges the calcium from arterial plaques so they can dissolve naturally.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

synthesis

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 02:52:01 AM »
ShivaDestructor,

 
What I am trying to say and to help everyone out in the forums is be careful what you ingest...


"Regarding the process, many of the researchers are just using a stir plate and a heating unit, using for instance the Turkevich process. I don't see what your getting at. You seem to have criteria that don't apply to what people are doing here. I've read reports where researchers take the most difficult paths of producing AgNP, and they end up with the same result as the quick, simple, time-tested, frequently used Turkevich process (or like the Na2CO3-process with reducing sugars). Done correctly - clear, uniform color, no chloride ions left."
 
Also, your wrong about "You seem to have criteria that don't apply to what people are doing here" I spend alot of my time trying to understand nanoparticles to help people. You can't get more dedicated than me unless your my advisor.  I am a Biochemist 4th year phd student with a double undergraduate degree in biochemistry and chemistry...  my specialty is organic/inorganic synthesis of drug coating of nanoparticle toward application of cellular. I am very aware of what nanoparticle can do, could do, and will do in the future.... Also, are you kidding me shivadestructor? We use turkevich as a example of paper on methods nothing more just a guide line to follow, but most if not all the time researchers will modify his method (I.E. because he doesnt report the truth)... Also, your mistaken, for biological application we try our best to control the environment to synthesize nanoparticle from atmosphere in our clean room to the amount of heat distribution to our system inside and outside we dont just use a silly heating mantle, a stir bar and a flask and prey to a god that it will come out so and so nm because it was reported by some person... FYI we don't use flask that is the worst glassware to use for synthesizing gold nanoparticles. Also, color does not tell you everything it only a estimate by the nake eye...lighting inside your house you may see and believe it to be around blah blah nm but when you step outside in the sun the lighting will be different and you will see and believe it to be a different size.  You can not report I see ruby red it must be 20nm particle size... Report that to Jac's or langmuir and your going to get a letter saying how do you know and something in the lines of your an idiot don't waste our peers time reporting junk. We use UV spectra data to report not I see ruby red. (Also, SEM, TEM, and DLS) Their alot of physics involve in making nanoparticles just FYI it only cost a few dollars to make but the time it takes for them to analyze the samples are expensive hint the price.  Journals hid things from you HINT HINT!!! Sizing is very important important what if your trying to stabilize nanoparticle in a organic layer or aqueous layer? Size does determine if your compound will aggregate or not once you coat your gold.  Maybe your criteria isn't true to the cause to many of us working on nanoparticle for biological application ShivaDestructor... We follow rules and ethics because we have to. The FDA is in place to guide us on human/ animal trials and release...You can't blame a few corrupt people in the FDA  (everyone is human and everyone has their price)  without their rules, ethics and guide lines... It will be a slaughter house...   we do not think of just maybe in the research field a maybe is a dead person, a liability to us,  and could damage our reputation for future projects if not end our career. We do our best to collaborate and hope the FDA researchers can see if their anything wrong with the drugs on human trials or animal trials. FDA does recall drugs because they find out some side effects that wasn't caught in the beginning... Are they bad at recalling the drug or are they true to their work to help the united states people?   If we do things without regulation and our maybe was wrong we will be marked as a murder and a failure in our field. For all you people out their that is against us. walk  in our shoes or think like us for once and you will understand what we do isn't for us... We care about the population as a whole and willing to sacrifice our time to help but to be honest if researchers started to think like you guys their will be no progress because  honestly  the majority if not all don't have that sickness or disease why should we care... Keep that in mind....


ShivaDestructor

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 11:33:33 AM »
Dear Synthesis,

thanks for coming back. I was slightly worried that you would turn away when part of this thread turned sarcastic. Please stay. We might become best friends.

What I am trying to say and to help everyone out in the forums is be careful what you ingest...

I got that. It was evident from your tone that you a) had good intentions b) a scientific background/approach.

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Also, your wrong about "You seem to have criteria that don't apply to what people are doing here"

Since you are a scientist, I will nitpick words with you because in your line of work precision is very important.
I am not wrong about "You seem..." because that is MY impression. Semantics.
Regarding the rest of the statement, I still believe my opinion holds water. The people on this forum that are producing AuNP is doing it for a practical application right NOW, with a health problem as focus. "Our" AuNP:s are NOT intended to hook up other molecules for signals, drug delivery etc (functionalizing).  What you are working with/researching is something else.  You need vast precision, especially when functionalizing the clusters since the outcome might be extremely different depending on size. The end GOAL for "you" and "us" is the same it seems - new vehicles and methods for curing disease.

Your timeline is 10 years. The timeline for many on this forum is NOW. The forum members and their relatives, friends and acquaintances have BIG health problems NOW, unresolved by current medical science - and in some cases the health problems were even caused by medical "science".

You be the judge - I have Alzheimer friends that are turning into vegetables - as - we - speak. Now. Right f-ing now. They have NO current help in sight. One is a member of a double blind study on omega-3 lipids. She asked the scientists if she was going to get better. They said "No". So much for minimizing placebo, maximizing nocebo and eradicating hope. Most in the medical community and alternative community is looking for a silver bullet for a certain disease. IMHO many of the currently incurable diseases are just the net result of one or several dysfunctional processes deep in the process chain - and in a homeostatic self-regulating system like the body where different processes kick in to compensate for others not working, it might take a very long time before the problem surfaces and pops out as a "disease" like Alzheimers, MS, Parkinson, arthritis etc - we all know that a fever can be caused by hundreds of different diseases/causes. Most people seem to look for ONE cause for Alzheimers etc. and ONE cure. Should my friends wait 10 years for the research to advance? They don't have 10 years. So - I give them curcumin liposomes+vitamin D3 (to stimulate potentially beta-amyloid plaqcue eating macrophages type I and II as well as ease inflammation), omega-3, coconut oil (for ketones - insulin resistance in the brain is another hypothesis), colloidal silver to clear up potential chronic low level infections, and colloidal gold for a POTENTIAL cognitive boost (according to Guy E. Abrahams reports). NONE of these "cures"/"methods" are in the "book"/approved - but there exists budding research pointing in these directions as well as anecdotal evidence and some layman research.

(comment on Guy E. Abraham - he seems mostly self-published, but his work seems honest, professional, experienced and clear - his gold studies are just a small part - I guess he is results focused, aged, not in the grants/peer-approval-circuit anymore)

With NO "approved" alternatives and the end result inevitable regarding Alzheimers- vegetable state - would you sit down and gracefully accept that destiny, or would you look for a way? Especially if that way HAS some substance? Especially if the way consists of methods that seem quite harmless/non-toxic? If your mother was suffering today - what would you do? AFAIK, maybe your research impulse is motivated by a history of disease in your family.

Extend the above moral dilemma to any disease you want. I've taken sides.

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I spend alot of my time trying to understand nanoparticles to help people.

Commendable. Sometimes you have to act, too. In your position that could ruin your upcoming career unless you are very careful. I have no such career.

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You can't get more dedicated than me unless your my advisor.

I like your style, I am placing the above in the rhetorical box, not in the truth box.

<snip> Cutting away text pointing to precision and exact methods, where I fully agree and understand the authors position. <snip>

You are thoroughly mistaking this forum to be aiming at producing papers, academic results, achieving an exact result (good enough is ANOTHER criteria). I am not saying that you are doing anything wrong, I am saying that you are applying you world view to something that does not fit/match your world view.

We dabble in your field because we NEED results NOW. If you would dabble in my field, I could knock you down on a thousand fine points - but I would be able to see if your dabbling was getting you results and/or was worth a shot. Different standards for different worlds.

I would LOVE to have the time, resources, money and subjects to test 18 nm, 19 nm, 20 nm, etc in vivo in different dosages using different protocols. I currently don't. I have businesses to run, projects to complete, patents to formulate, friends to help, people to heal, stuff to learn, family to love and take care of. Life is not about exploring an isolated variable across one dimension. Life is finding a path with those constraints that are given you - finding your local maximas in a multidimensional space. The ivory tower environment is one space with certain constraints, the outer world has other constraints.

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Maybe your criteria isn't true to the cause to many of us working on nanoparticle for biological application ShivaDestructor... We follow rules and ethics because we have to.

"we" as in "me and my fellow researchers" I presume.

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The FDA is in place to guide us on human/ animal trials and release...You can't blame a few corrupt people in the FDA  (everyone is human and everyone has their price)

It seems that we actually can blame a few corrupt people in the FDA since they obviously have VAST impact. Since you seem to be a budding idealist, I will also correct you by claiming that a few, precious few people do not have a price.

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without their rules, ethics and guide lines... It will be a slaughter house...

Agreed. I am not fond of people selling saw dust as fat loss agents - and that is one of the most innocuous scams I've heard of, yet it makes me quite upset.

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For all you people out their that is against us. walk  in our shoes or think like us for once and you will understand what we do isn't for us...

Use that same argument and apply it to yourself in this context. Do not mistake me for not having a surface to academia. You would be surprised.

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We care about the population as a whole and willing to sacrifice our time to help

Pure projection from your part, but it is good to know where you come from.

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but to be honest if researchers started to think like you guys their will be no progress because  honestly  the majority if not all don't have that sickness or disease why should we care... Keep that in mind....

Your eloquence and line of reasoning broke down in the later part of your post which is a pity. Stick around. I want to know you.

As a parting note: I just walked the dog and ran into my neighbor - she wanted more colloidal silver. She got some a few weeks ago when I rang her doorbell and found her doubled over by severe pain from a urinary tract infection. Two days on colloidal silver, infection gone - much quicker than when she normally uses antibiotics for the same disease. No disease recurring yet although the dose was small. One of her dogs have had a recurring rash in his ear, treated by veterinaries and antibiotics and antifungals again and again since he was a puppy for several years... two days of topical colloidal silver - rash gone. After my neighbor got rid of her urinary tract infection, she also noticed that a year long pain in the neck (literally) was gone! No clue what it was - but it disappeared with a low dose of colloidal silver.

That colloidal silver was home cooked, with a clear golden color, not standardized, nor researched - and it did good. It helped. Am I a bad guy? Am I irresponsible? Am I misguided? Am I uninformed? Think about quoting and research - it is a trust network, often fed by agendas. Oh, I forgot about the part where you hinted about the reports not telling the whole truth - that is self-evident, at least if you do business and file patents.

Warmly,

/J





Offline kephra

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 11:52:53 AM »
synthesis,

I'm sure your motives are admirable, but you are not helping at all.

For instance telling us to be careful imparts no knowledge.  If my wife tells me to be careful when I go hunting, I know all the rules of hunter safety and how to apply them.  You have told us nothing.  I suspect your idea of being safe is not to use them at all.  Of course, I would be a total cripple, so that's not going to happen.

I went through my records, and I bought my first piece of gold wire to make gold nanoparticles in 2004.  In the intervening years, I have continually bought, made, consumed grams of gold, with no side effects.  I have consumed nanopartlcles produced by underwater plasmas, electrolysis of gold wire, reduction of gold chloride with citrate, maltodextrin, vitamin C, wheat dextrin, corn dextrin, sodium hydroxide, sodium carbonate, and soluble starch, and colloidal gold pills from Optimox.  My liver and kidneys have not failed, I have not turned purple, no crystals have formed in my eyes, no peripheral neuropathy has occurred, and no body parts have fallen off,  so in short, I've had nothing but good results with my arthritis, and as an added bonus, my long term memory has improved.

The members of this forum are self-reliant individuals who believe in taking care of themselves to the highest degree possible, and do not like to simply be told not to do something.  Whether you are or not, you have come across to me as more of a bureaucrat than someone with useful information, and we are the wrong crowd to do that with.

If you have specific things which are relevant to us, please share. 

For instance, have you ever seen a well documented case where someone was actually harmed by consuming gold nanoparticles?  I have searched for years and have not, but perhaps you have. 

It has been shown by examination of cadavers that wearing a gold ring over a long period of time provides protection against arthritis for that finger.  Also gold injections were once a standard treatment for arthritis but eventually the toxicity of the ionic gold limited its usefulness.  The fact that it worked has been hypothesized as being caused by in situ reduction of the ionic gold to nanoparticles.  If so, can you explain the mechanism of gold providing joint protection?

You seem very keen on having only certain size nanoparticles.  What are the possible effects we should look for based on particle size and shape.  For instance, I read one report that claimed that nanorods in the 6 nm range were toxic while the same report claimed that they found no toxicity with nanospheres. 

You claim glass is not a good reactor vessel.  What is the best?  Is there a difference between borosilicate glass and soda lime glass?  How much difference and in what qualities of the finished product does the difference in reactor vessels create?

Given the amounts of sodium chloride, sodium citrate, maltodextrin with a D.E of 12, do you know how to calculate the amount of gold chloride produced in an electrolysis cell with a current of X amperes for T minutes?

It is things like that that interest us, and which you could probably comment on.

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The FDA is in place to guide us on human/ animal trials and release...You can't blame a few corrupt people in the FDA 
I certainly can blame them. The FDA is totally corrupt from the top down.  I think killing tens of thousands of people demands blame and accountability.  Whoever it was that approved Vioxx for instance should be tried and convicted of manslaughter because that's what it was, yet no one was even fired that I know of.  There is no way you can justify the actions or policies of the FDA.  Its just another government agency high on power and money from the drug companies.  The concept is good, the execution is horrendous.  For instance, no current or former official of the FDA should ever be allowed to work for a drug company as an employee, or on their board of directors.  That simple rule would eliminate a lot of the corruption, but it won't happen.


There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Ulfsaar

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 02:23:27 PM »
Kephra, was your treatment administered intravenously due to the emergency? Would oral way be efficient enough?

Offline kephra

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 02:31:19 PM »
If you mean the chelation treatments, it is intravenous.  Oral chelation is not nearly as effective, and I've not met anyone yet who had any luck with it, but then I only know a few people who have tried it.  I know at least 50 people who have done the IV chelation treatments.  We would all sit together in a large room and talk for 4 hours while doing the IV.  Not one of those people had it fail.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline mraluma415

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Re: What is everyone using these particles for?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 07:15:11 AM »
This was a powerful conversation. I think what happened there is Mr Phd was envious that a community of everyday people are getting epic results without the need of an expensive education, big daddy FDA, and inexpensive gear. Like the knowledge of Dr Bob Beck, Royal Rife, Wilhelm Reich, Tesla, its all free and publicly available for you to do your own research and evolve the technologies, which is the way science should be, not patented and suppressed.

Way to stand up for the people guys!

Jx
"The art of healing comes from nature, not from the physician. Therefore the physician must start from nature, with an open mind." - Paracelsus