Author Topic: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?  (Read 15426 times)

Offline kephra

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2014, 12:59:08 AM »
Very good.  I wish I had a lab and a couple megabucks to play with, but I don't.  Mostly, I do thought experiments.  My field is physics, not biology, so I may be missing some important details.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

JaWa

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2014, 01:16:35 AM »
From personal experience, it seems like these particles are getting where they need to go no matter what they are capped with. I think one of the most important things to consider is whether or not it should be taken with food/water or on an empty stomach. We once had this debate on the forum, and given the resources of digestion, it seemed as though the uptake of liquid was much faster without the presence of solids. If this is the case, absorption of these particles may happen much quicker than we suspect.

My personal/subjective experience is that absorption of colloidal gold on an empty stomach is dramatically faster than it is otherwise.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2014, 02:14:32 AM »
From personal experience, it seems like these particles are getting where they need to go no matter what they are capped with. I think one of the most important things to consider is whether or not it should be taken with food/water or on an empty stomach. We once had this debate on the forum, and given the resources of digestion, it seemed as though the uptake of liquid was much faster without the presence of solids. If this is the case, absorption of these particles may happen much quicker than we suspect.

My personal/subjective experience is that absorption of colloidal gold on an empty stomach is dramatically faster than it is otherwise.
As Mr Aluma said this full stomach / empty stomach question has been discussed before but to my knowledge we have never come up with a definitive answer. Too bad because it has important implications for both colloidal gold & colloidal silver.

Recently in this thread Lionheart said: "Stomach pH is lower in a fasted state compared to after a meal,"
Hopefully you could expound on that statement a little more. I tried to research it once on the internet & needless to say, quite a can of worms. Hours later I knew less than when I started. Is there research, or is this a known accepted fact in the medical community?

I guess the other question would be just how harmful the ultra low pH would be to a silver or gold particle.
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LionHeart

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2014, 11:32:08 AM »
Quote
Is there research, or is this a known accepted fact in the medical community?

There is research, and in my experience it's a pretty established fact in the medical community. Naturally, they are also interested in how meal intake affects drugs and their uptake. Here is an early paper describing pH differences in fasted and fed state: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2395805

If interested, this paper provide a good general overview of the digestive mechanics: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23506381, although not including some important aspects such as the influence of the gut microbiota.

How do these conditions affect colloidal gold morphology, stability and uptake?
I think there may some indications here: http://turroserver.chem.columbia.edu/surfaceplasmons/pdf/18_CR_107_4797_PlasmonReview.pdf
Have only looked briefly at the sections: acid-induced aggregation and effects of pH, but there may be many goodies here.
I read this:
"At pH ∼2 (d), irreversible precipitation and long wavelength broadening of the SP band were observed as a result of instability of the citrate capping
on Au nanoparticles at low pH, which was supported by TEM observation of larger aggregates in which individual nanoparticles could hardly be identified. The pH-dependent change in optical properties has implications for controlled release of molecules from the nanoparticle assembly, an area
of importance in controlled drug release."

But this was on particles assembled by fullerenes, so I'm not sure if it's valid as well for gold particles reduced with citrate. 


Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2014, 06:10:30 AM »
@ LionHeart,

Thanks alot for providing more info & the links.

According to the first link:  "In the fasted state, the median gastric pH was 1.7 and the median duodenal pH was 6.1. When the meal was administered the gastric pH climbed briefly to a median peak value of 6.7, then declined gradually back to the fasted state value over a period of less than 2 hr."

Wow, 1.7 ; That's pretty low. Since the article you quoted was seeing effects on the Au nanoparticles at about pH 2 then I guess it is an issue that should be given some thought.

As far as when is the optimal time to take colloidal silver or colloidal gold I think there would actually be 3 choices: empty stomach, full stomach (with the meal), OR a specified amount of time after a meal (perhaps 45 minutes? +/- 15 min.)

As is often the case, it looks like a trade-off situation:
Empty stomach = Faster absorption but more possible harm to the colloidal silver or colloidal gold due to extremely low pH.
Full stomach = Slower absorption yet less unfriendly environment but the colloidal silver or colloidal gold would still be in the somewhat unfriendly environment for a longer length of time (vs empty stomach).

Possibly the 3rd choice I mentioned could be a logical compromise. Set a timer when you finish a meal for 30 - 45 minutes & hope to sneak the colloidal silver or colloidal gold past the moat of acid before the pH gets back down into the extremely low ranges.

Another idea might be to take the colloidal silver or colloidal gold on an empty stomach but 15 minutes beforehand take an antacid or something that would raise the pH level in the stomach. Problem with that idea is who knows what that chemical could do to the colloidal silver or colloidal gold? Guess I would have to hire a chemist to help me figure that out  ;)

It could also be that colloidal silver stands up to severe acid conditions with fewer detrimental effects compared to colloidal gold?

However, IF our colloidal silver is being adversely affected by the acid then that could be a good reason to reduce with cinnamon extract rather than Glucose/Fructose (Karo).

In a different thread Kephra recently mentioned: "There was some research done with metallic silver in an artificial stomach fluid bath (pH 2) which showed that a portion (25%) of the metallic silver was oxidized to silver chloride during the amount of time the researches thought it would remain in the stomach.  They however had no way of measuring absorption." 

If the digestion of the phenols (from cinn ext.) that surround the silver particles only starts in the stomach and is then completed in the small intestine then at least we know that a significant portion of our silver is not being converted to Silver Chloride. Might take a few hours longer for the silver to make it's way into the bloodstream, but I see no reason why it would not be adequately absorbed by the small & large intestine.

LionHeart, do you use Colloidal Silver?    I have not made or used colloidal gold yet so I don't know as much about it but I wonder if there would be a way to surround your gold particles with the polyphenols from cinnamon extract? Need to hire that chemist again  :)
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2014, 03:14:54 PM »
There is another factor (there always is another factor) and that is the amount of fluid in the stomach.  Once digestion is complete, there is only a couple hundred ml of fluid...  the stomach juice is very concentrated.  Food absorbs a lot of the acid, accounting for the pH rise with a full stomach.

Add to that, based on all the data I have seen so far, the Zeta potential of silver/gold nanoparticles at low pH peaks at about pH3+- suggesting that the particles are most stable there, with a very positive Zeta potential.  On the alkaline side, the Zeta potential peaks about pH 10.  Zeta potential determines the amount of electrostatic repulsion the particles have, so high Zeta should equate to more stability.  Zeta potential for NPs seems to drop drastically below pH3.  Zeta potential drop to zero at a pH slightly below 7, which means that the particles lose their electrostatic repulsion as they are being diluted with stomach acid, before reaching a higher Zeta again at the lower pH.  IE: The solution does not instantaneously change from 7+ to 3.  But the capping agent plays a big part in determining the Zeta potential.

Doctor Abram, the guy who published the physiological results from giving 30 mg of colloidal gold a day to arthritis patients used gold made with maltodextrin.  AFAIK, he did not specify when to take it, or at least he didn't publish that detail. 

Citrate is a pure ionic capping agent.  Maltodextrin is more steric, so is less influenced by low pH. 

There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2014, 06:06:58 PM »
Yes, always another factor or variable. Actually the Zeta potential explanation given implies that the main goal is to sneak the colloidal silver or colloidal gold past the stomach at a point in time that the pH is at 3 or higher. Seems that 30 minutes after a meal still might be a logical choice. That would PROBABLY allow most of the nanoparticles to sneak through unscathed?

Kephra: I noticed that your preferred formula for chemical reduction of gold chloride into colloidal gold has recently changed from 1/2 teaspoon of maltodextrin to 20 drops (1 ml) of Karo/water 50/50 mix. (per 250 ml DW,  1 ml. gold chloride & 1/2 ml. of 1 Molar Na2CO3)

I am guessing that this may be yet another trade off situation? Also guessing that the Karo water may do a better (or quicker?) job of fully reducing, but the Malto would probably do a better job of protecting? Any way to reduce it with Karo and then somehow protect it with malto? (might be a stupid Q ?)
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2014, 06:13:25 PM »
They both work equally well at reducing the gold, and give the same color.  The maltodextrin capped might be more stable over time, and I haven't kept any glucose reduced for any length of time. 
I posted it because everyone can go to the store and get corn syrup, but you probably have to order maltodextrin. 
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2014, 06:20:53 PM »
Oh, Ok, now I understand. So the maltodextrin would probably be the preferred ingredient if you had both on hand since it does as good a job at fully reducing the gold chloride to colloidal gold and it MIGHT do a better job of protecting the colloidal gold.
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Offline kephra

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2014, 06:29:10 PM »
Yep.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2014, 05:28:14 AM »
OK, so I did a little due dilligence & googled around about Dr. Guy E. Abraham. Turns out he is affiliated with Optimox corp which is who used to make the 10 mg. Aurasol Tablets. They still have all the info about Aurasol on the Optimox web site, but it also says product discontinued. Here is what I found:

"As a nutritional supplement, the recommended amount is one tablet of 10 mg in the morning after breakfast. However, your health care provider may recommend different amounts depending on your condition. Even though over the last 10 years, no side effect has been observed with the use of Aurasol® in amounts from three to 60 mg/day, it is best that your response to Aurasol® be monitored by a qualified healthcare provider."

No clue if Dr. Abraham wrote the instructions that way on purpose to decrease the effects of the stomach acid or if that just seemed like a perfect time of day to take a supplement? Since he is the one who conducted those 3 studies I would like to think the instructions were written that way on purpose for a good reason. ( Plus he agrees with my idea of sneaking it by the stomach acid after a meal.)   :)
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Offline kephra

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2014, 01:42:42 PM »
Great find RickinWI,  I never read the recommendation.  The bottle just says to take one a day.
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2014, 06:10:31 PM »
I know you were using the Aurasol tablets when they were available & since you expressed disappointment when they discontinued the product I assume you were getting the same results from their tablets that you do from 10 mg of colloidal gold that you make yourself?

Reason I ask is to determine if Optimox is a reliable producer of supplements. While on their site I noticed they also make a product called "cogimax" which contains 150 mg of silica per tablet. I have been sporadically buying FIJI water at my local grocer specifically because it contains 92 mg of Silica per Liter. (for Alzheimer's prevention) Although I get it for a very good price of $1.79 per 1.5L bottle, that's still a little pricey for sand. So one 1.5L bottle of FIJI that I purchase would (theoretically) have about the same amount of silica (silicic acid) as one Cogimax tablet.

Optimox also makes Iodoral Iodine supplement. Their site is loaded with what appears to be at least semi-scientific research & reports. It is void of marketing hype. Guess I am just not used to seeing a site like that.
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Offline kephra

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2014, 07:23:27 PM »
I think optimox is totally legit.  The gold tablets were what they said they were, and I have been using there Iodoral for years. 
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Herbs as reducing agents? and HAuCl4 vs solid gold?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2014, 08:51:24 PM »
Think I might get some of the cogimax. Now, if I could just remember where I put my charge card......... and my glasses...... and what the hell is my wallet doing in the freezer   :)
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.