Author Topic: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix  (Read 5026 times)

Offline Argentum

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2015, 06:30:48 PM »
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Our results show that glucose is not always a good reducing agent.
Its always a good reducing agent, but not a good stabilizer.

OK, this is starting to sink in. Evidently the maltose in the Karo Light Syrup is a stabilizer. Then while making gel-capped colloidal silver the gelatine acts as the stabilizer (Sweet & Low reduced). I didn't realize that a stabilizer was required.

As for fructose in the Karo, back in the '70s high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) was added to it. Then years later due to consumer demand it was removed. From the Karo FAQ:

http://www.karosyrup.com/faq.html

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Offline Argentum

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2015, 07:45:45 PM »
OK, have a picture of the two side-by-side. The clear one (left) was Karo Light Corn Syrup reduced (glucose and maltose), while the turbid one was Sweet & low reduced (glucose and saccharine).

This is outside in a light overcast for lighting, no flash.

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Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2015, 08:01:55 PM »
Yep, thats the result I get with either plain glucose or plain fructose.  So far I have found nothing better than ordinary Karo corn syrup.  Cfnisbet uses Tate & Lyles golden syrup with good results also.  Apparently corn syrup is not common in other countries.

I always pondered why Karo worked so well and plain glucose or fructose did not.  Now that I know that there is no fructose in corn syrup and that there is maltose instead, it makes a lot more sense.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline George

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2015, 08:11:37 PM »
I made mine with 100% glucose syrup. "First try":http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2843.0
It turned out fine. Clear bright yellow.   ???

Offline Gene

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2015, 10:14:56 PM »
Glucose syrup isn't glucose!  Its a maltodextrin syrup (seriously). So there are far fewer glucose molecules per unit of weight since the maltodextrin molecule is much bigger and only one end of it can reduce one silver oxide molecule.  The only way to know for sure how many molecules of glucose you're dealing with per unit of weight is if you can find out the "DE" (dextrose equivalent) number for the stuff which from the place I got my glucose powder where they sold it also, it didn't say anything other than "glucose syrup" on the label and they were clueless when I asked (home brewing shop). I chose not to buy any.

So I can't really tell you how much more to use than you'd use with glucose but I'd suspect if you erred on the high side (like 3x-4x as much) you'd be just fine.

Stuff is probably a good stabilizer too I suspect.



Offline Gene

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2015, 10:51:18 PM »
I don't know whats wrong with that right photo thats so cloudy/turbid because I make 20PPM and 40PPM and even have made 50PPM (this passed week) glucose reduced and it all comes out exactly like the left glass of colloidal silver (varying darkness given the different concentrations, obviously). I've never gotten anything that looks like the right one and I've been making colloidal silver (both Karo light reduced and more recently glucose reduced) for over 3 years at this point.

I originally used Karo light but switched to pure glucose powder about a year ago after finding a source for it where I bought a pound (lifetime supply).  I noticed no difference in colloidal silver quality switching away from Karo to the glucose.

I gel capped the 20PPM and 40PPM after the fact (keep glucose reduced around and gel cap a quart of it when I need it) by just reheating the stuff to about 140F and adding the gelatine and waiting a while for it to rehydrate and then stirring it and letting it cool and it still comes out looking like the left photo albeit a bit darker from the gelatine. I've even gel capped glucose reduced 40PPM colloidal silver this passed week and it came out just fine.  Just to be complete, I didn't start gel capping until sometime this year, months after I switched to using glucose for reduction.  I've never gel capped Karo light reduced.

So obviously its not the glucose doing it regardless what you might think unless you have bad glucose (wink) because if it were, I'd be having issues too and I'm not.

Two differences do come to mind though.  I don't own a microwave. It died and I chose not to buy a new one.  I didn't start reducing with glucose till well after Mr. Microwave chose to go to that big electronics roundup in the sky so all my glucose reduced is heated conventionally (double boiler to get the cell temp up to the 150F or so I run it at quickly and then onto an industrial hotplate to keep it there during the run).  I'm also using pure food grade glucose powder (gotten from a home brewing supply shop). I'm not using sweet-n-low or a knock off.

I can't honestly see how the heat source could affect things, can it?

Could the calcium saccharine in sweet-n-low or something else they put in the stuff, which may or may not be mentioned on the label, be causing the issues you're observing?

It has to be something because I don't see what you're seeing and what I've said above are really the only 2 differences I'm noticing.  That doesn't say there isn't something else but if there is, I'm not realizing it right now.

Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2016, 06:35:38 PM »
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OK, but the label on Karo light says "corn syrup, salt, vanilla" so if corn syrup is a starch where do the sugars come from?
Corn syrup is not starch, it is made from starch.  Starch is long chains of glucose molecules, and the process breaks apart the chain.  The result is glucose and maltose.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

alexp5

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 07:04:45 AM »
I just made two batches of 100 ml of 20 mg (200 ppm) colloidal silver. 100 ml deionized water + with 0.1 ml 1-mol sodium carbonate + maltose (left AND glucose (right) as molar solutions enough for the reduction, then waited til boiling starts, and then slowly added drop by drop 2 ml of 0.0927 mol silver nitrate.

The left (maltose) remained stable although some turbidity can be seen in the 100 ml 200 ppm concentration when finished, but after dilution to 20 ppm, it was yellow clear.

The right (glucose) was clear after the first few drops but then became more and more turbid, and the final concentration is milky-like. After dulution to 20 ppm it was like duluted milky.

So apparently, there's a big difference in stabilizing effect between maltose and glucose.

Picture:  http://imgur.com/eXA9zkZ

Yes that happen me to also I got same milky color I post that while ago in this post think heat has something to do with that turbidity

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3403.msg28424#msg28424

Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2016, 12:54:37 PM »
Glucose or Sweet N Low is never going to work well for high ppm colloidal silver.  200 ppm is just too much, but it works fine at 20 ppm. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2016, 01:38:01 PM »
How very interesting. I can get pure Fructose from the local supermarket by the kilo, so I tried using it once instead of Golden Syrup, and it instantly turned the colloidal silver turbid, precisely the same as your photo. I went back to GS because it works better, but I feel that there is a very fast reaction with pure fructose, maybe too fast, or maybe the isomer makes a difference?

Glucose is right handed, fructose is the left hand isomer. This often makes a vast difference. The problem with Thalidomide and pregnancy only occurs with the "wrong" isomer (can't remember which one).