Author Topic: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate  (Read 200 times)

Offline kephra

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Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« on: March 02, 2024, 06:08:42 PM »
I have done some experimenting with sodium caseinate as a stabilizer to replace gelatin. 
I made 3 250ml 320ppm batches which came out perfect.

The formula I used is:
    250ml distilled water heated.(190 degrees F)
    1 gram sodium caseinate
    1 ml karo corn syrup diluted 50/50 with vodka
    5 drops standard electrolyte
    bullion bar anode
    12 gauge wire cathode
    Electrode spacing 1.5 inches
    15ma current
    10 volts minimum across electrodes.
    constant stirring.

Like gelatin, it is slow to dissolve and requires hot water. (The package says it is cold soluble, but didn't appear to me to dissolve in cold.)

Sodium caseinate is a nontoxic food additive made from milk.  It is readily available, I sourced mine from Amazon.  The FDA lists sodium caseinate as non-dairy even though its made from milk.  Go figure :)

Whereas gelatin has a brownish color, and darkens the resultant Colloidal Silver,  the caseinate is white and did not appear to make the Colloidal Silver darker.




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Offline Heino_R

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2024, 08:20:14 PM »
Hello Kephra, that is for me very interesting . Sodium caseinate is a casein product which is probably also denaturalized with sodium hydroxide like the protective colloid of collargol, which was previously called sodium protalbinate.
I'm just wondering if there is a chemical relationship or if they are the same thing. Sodium protalbinate is produced by boiling casein in sodium hydroxide and then acid precipitation.
In the production of Collarol, it not only serves as a protective colloid, but also as a reducing agent.
Since it is a casein-based protein, the solubility of sodium caseinate is also likely to decrease at low pH.

Maybe you can test it by adding a little vinegar essence to see if the colloid will precipitate and then bring it back into solution with sodium hydroxide.
In my electrochemical experiments with sodium protalbinate there was the problem that the silver anode became coated with it.
For that reason I didn't pursue it any further.


Offline kephra

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2024, 09:11:03 PM »
Hello Kephra, that is for me very interesting . Sodium caseinate is a casein product which is probably also denaturalized with sodium hydroxide like the protective colloid of collargol, which was previously called sodium protalbinate.
I'm just wondering if there is a chemical relationship or if they are the same thing. Sodium protalbinate is produced by boiling casein in sodium hydroxide and then acid precipitation.
In the production of Collarol, it not only serves as a protective colloid, but also as a reducing agent.
Since it is a casein-based protein, the solubility of sodium caseinate is also likely to decrease at low pH.

Maybe you can test it by adding a little vinegar essence to see if the colloid will precipitate and then bring it back into solution with sodium hydroxide.
In my electrochemical experiments with sodium protalbinate there was the problem that the silver anode became coated with it.
For that reason I didn't pursue it any further.
I mixed equal parts of the 320ppm and vinegar, and there was no reaction or color change except for the dilution.  It seems stable.  The anode coating seemed less than when using gelatin, and I just fire cleaned it as usual.

Sodium caseinate is made by adding acid to milk to make it curdle.  Then the curds are dried, ground, and treated with sodium hydroxide to make it soluble.  Chemistry rule is that all sodium compounds are soluble in water.  This is basically casein glue, like Stradivarius used to build his violins with. 

Are you sure alginates are made from milk?  I looked alginate up, and see that it is made from brown seaweed.  Perhaps this is a mistranslation?
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Offline Heino_R

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2024, 08:17:13 AM »

I mixed equal parts of the 320ppm and vinegar, and there was no reaction or color change except for the dilution.  It seems stable.  The anode coating seemed less than when using gelatin, and I just fire cleaned it as usual.

Sodium caseinate is made by adding acid to milk to make it curdle.  Then the curds are dried, ground, and treated with sodium hydroxide to make it soluble.  Chemistry rule is that all sodium compounds are soluble in water.  This is basically casein glue, like Stradivarius used to build his violins with. 

Are you sure alginates are made from milk?  I looked alginate up, and see that it is made from brown seaweed.  Perhaps this is a mistranslation?

Well, now, I think that sodium caseinate is chemically different from sodium protalbinate, which can also be made from casein.
I didn't mean alginate or sodium alginate either, but sodium protalbinate.
Sodium protalbinate is the sodium salt of protalbic acid.
This can be produced by alkaline hydrolysis from cow's milk casein, but also from egg albumin.
This goes back to the German-Austrian chemist Carl Paal, who discovered it around 1900 as a protective colloid for various metals. In particular, for colloidal palladium and colloidal platinum.
He also recognized the possibility of using it to produce precious metal catalysts.

You can Google “protalbinate Paal” or “protalbic acid Paal”. Preferably without exclamation marks ""

For example, in this book by The Swedberg (Nobel Prize winner in Colloid Chemistry) there is the following about Paal's protective colloid (page 83):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/The_formation_of_colloids_%28IA_cu31924014777696%29.pdf

"Paal and his students have worked out some very efficient reduction methods (59). The alkaline salts of protalbic and lysalbic acid are used as protective colloids. In the case of gold and silver no other reducing agent is necessary. The preparation of the hydrosols of platinum, osmium, palladium, iridium, copper, tellurium and selenium requires, however, the addition of a special reducing agent such as hydrazine hydrate, sodium amalgam, etc. Most of Paal's hydrosols can be evaporated to dryness and dissolved again in the form of sols, the protective colloids present preventing the metal particles from getting too close together"



« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 10:41:16 AM by Heino_R »

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2024, 08:40:23 AM »
Topic set "sticky" - this is starting to be a very interesting topic, showing great usefulness for advanced users.

Offline kephra

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2024, 04:15:05 PM »

I mixed equal parts of the 320ppm and vinegar, and there was no reaction or color change except for the dilution.  It seems stable.  The anode coating seemed less than when using gelatin, and I just fire cleaned it as usual.

Sodium caseinate is made by adding acid to milk to make it curdle.  Then the curds are dried, ground, and treated with sodium hydroxide to make it soluble.  Chemistry rule is that all sodium compounds are soluble in water.  This is basically casein glue, like Stradivarius used to build his violins with. 

Are you sure alginates are made from milk?  I looked alginate up, and see that it is made from brown seaweed.  Perhaps this is a mistranslation?

Well, now, I think that sodium caseinate is chemically different from sodium protalbinate, which can also be made from casein.
I didn't mean alginate or sodium alginate either, but sodium protalbinate.
Sodium protalbinate is the sodium salt of protalbic acid.
...
Duh!  I misread albinate as alginate:(

A looooooong time ago, I made 320ppm with gelatin and did an experiment to see if it could be dried and reconstituted.
I dipped a piece of paper towel in the solution, and left it dry.  When dried, the color did not change.  Then I put the dried piece of paper towel in water, and the water turned yellow indicating that the silver redissolved.  I will repeat this experiment with the casein stabilized 320ppm.


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Offline Heino_R

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2024, 10:06:13 AM »
........
I will repeat this experiment with the casein stabilized 320ppm.

Yes, perhaps it is possible that the particles are protected after drying and go back into solution.
But of course it is very time-consuming to evaporate 250ml of liquid to get 80mg Ag in dry Colloidal Silver.
But, the total dry weight are over 1g, as the entire sodium casinate and the reducing agent (glucose) are also contained in it.

If the sodium casinate had the same properties as the sodium protalbinate (keyword: isoelectric point), it would lose its solubility at low pH values and drag the nanoparticles with it, in order to then concentrate them by pouring off the supernatant, purify them and neutralize them again with sodium hydroxide and bring it back into solution.
This means it can be easy cleaned without a centrifuge and then dried in high concentration.

In addition to sodium protalbinate, I was able to achieve this years ago with egg white powder (from the bodybuilding shop). I used 250ml ready-made electrochemically produced colloidal gold 40 ppm, then mixed it with 15 mg of egg white powder and was able to concentrate it with acid precipitation, clean it, neutralize it.
I didn't dry it at the time, but it was 5ml of highly concentrated colloidal gold (~2000ppm) which, when diluted to 100ml (~100ppm), gave a beautiful ruby red color and only had an electrical conductivity of 100 µS/cm, so relatively pure and free of reduction residues.

But I have to say this 40 ppm electrolytically produced colloidal gold was reduced with citrate and tanin.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 05:48:39 PM by Heino_R »

Offline kephra

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2024, 08:50:19 PM »
My dried out 320ppm soaked paper towel reconstituted perfectly.
BTW, the commercially made colloidal gold tablets which Optimox used to sell contained:
    10mg gold
    microcrystalline cellulose (Micosolle)
    silicon based Micosolle
    maltodextrin
    stearic acid
    magnesium stearate
At the time these were sold, the cost was $1 per tablet.  I have no idea what Micosolle is.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 05:09:31 PM by kephra »
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Offline Gene

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2024, 11:30:50 PM »
This is all I can find on Micosolle.

https://furm.com/trademarks/micosolle-73740282


Offline Heino_R

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2024, 06:15:53 PM »
Since Micosolle and most of the other ingredients (except maltodextrin) are also found in the company's iodine supplement (Iodoral), I assume that they are anti-caking agents and fillers. One of the excipient information states:  "silicon dioxide (Micosolle®)". Elsewhere it says: "Micosolle® is a silica-based excipient containing a nonionic surfactant, microcrystalline cellulose, vegetable stearins and pharmaceutical glaze."
I think that the actual protective colloid of gold nanoparticles is not mentioned at all.

Currently you would have to pay over 70 cents for 10 mg of gold. I think today a 10 mg tablet of colloidal gold should cost $2.

Offline kephra

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Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2024, 05:59:42 PM »
I made an attempt to make high ppm colloidal gold using casein.  It failed as I did not have enough sodium carbonate in the solution to balance the acidity of the gold chloride.  This resulted in a lot of 'mozzerella cheese' with the gold. After filtering out the cheese, the product looked very good though.

On my second attempt, I used 1 ml of sodium carbonate solution for each ml of gold chloride. 
For the run, I started with 200ml of water, 3ml of Karo, 1/2 tsp of casein, 15ml of  sodium carbonate and 15ml of gold chloride. No cheese, but the gold did not reduce, as now the pH was too high.  So I added more gold chloride, until suddenly the gold all reduced. 
This took 5 more ml of gold chloride.  The result was no cheese, but great looking colloidal gold at about 800ppm.
When I attempt this again, I will try to determine the optimum ratio of sodium carbonate to gold chloride.

Theoretically, the molar ratio of gold chloride to sodium carbonate should be 2 to 1.
2HAuCl4 +Na2CO3 --> H2O + 2NaCl + CO2 + 2AuCl3  A little more will be needed to activate the reducing agent.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 11:44:14 AM by kephra »
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.