Author Topic: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix  (Read 5028 times)

Offline Argentum

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20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« on: December 10, 2015, 11:11:37 PM »
I successfully started making colloidal silver about 11 months ago, nice crystal clear yellow @ 20 PPM. After a few months decided to make 40 PPM gel capped colloidal silver. That to turned out rather well, a nice crystal clear honey colored liquid of beauty.

Needed some more 20 PPM (un-capped) colloidal silver and made some. Whoa, why is it turbid?? OK, must have done something wrong. Made another batch with hot DW, same result, turbid.

Started to think back and recalled making a few changes along the way. Such as switching from Karo Light Corn Syrup, to Sweet & Low (S&L). Along with re-making the batch of 1-mol sodium carbonate solution.

Note that the 40 PPM gel-capped colloidal silver was made with the newer components (S&L & new electrolyte). And that turned out OK. Getting windy, the experiments I ran today:

250 ml DW
5 drops 1-mol electrolyte
Stirred
15 minutes
5 mA

1 st run:

Heated DW for 22 seconds at 900 W. Ended up warmer then I wanted but ran it.
after the 15 min used a smidge of Karo to reduce it.
after 1 hour had a nice crystal clear yellow colloidal silver (success).

2nd run:

Same as 1st run but only heated the DW for 11 seconds. Not warm to touch (unlike 1st run).
after the 15 min used a smidge of Karo to reduce it.
after 1 hour had a nice crystal clear yellow colloidal silver (success).

3rd run:

Same as 2nd run heating the DW for 11 seconds. Not warm to touch.
after the 15 min used a smidge of S&L to reduce it.
after 1 hour had a nice turbid yellow colloidal silver (unsuccessful).

4th run:

Same as 2nd run heating the DW for 11 seconds. Not warm to touch.
after the 15 min heated the DW to about 80* C  (!!)
used a smidge of S&L to reduce it.
after 15 minutes had a nice turbid yellow colloidal silver (unsuccessful).
after 1 hour still had a nice turbid yellow colloidal silver (unsuccessful).

There it is, for regular 20 PPM un-capped colloidal silver use the Karo Light Corn syrup. I used it right from the bottle. At first (11 months ago) I also used it, but it was diluted 50/50 with distilled water. Which from my understanding could go bad, so didn't want to use it that way.

Hence the previous change to Sweet & Low (S&L), being a dry power no need to worry about it going bad. Now it is back to Karo for this recipe.

Also note that when I made the 40 PPM gel-capped colloidal silver, the S&L wasn't an issue. I have no idea why this is, but it did work for several batches.

Argentum

Edit note: changed all references of fructose & glucose to Karo & S&L.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:52:14 AM by Argentum »

Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 11:16:06 PM »
Karo corn syrup is a mixture of glucose and fructose.  The mixture seems to work a lot better than either of them alone. 
I keep my diluted corn syrup in the fridge, and never had it go bad there.
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Offline PeterXXL

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2015, 11:19:25 AM »
Karo corn syrup is a mixture of glucose and fructose.  The mixture seems to work a lot better than either of them alone. 
I keep my diluted corn syrup in the fridge, and never had it go bad there.

Hmmmm... have you tried using pure glucose and fructose separately, and as a 50/50 mix, or any other mix?

I have never used any syrup but uses 100% pure glucose to make 1-mol glucose solutions to use as reducing agent, and am considering buying pure frutose as well to make 1-mol fructose solutions, and mixed frructose/glucose solutions (for experimental purposes). Because corn syrup has not a defined percentage of fructose (as I understand it, it can be anything between 40 and 90%), as it's made from raw corn syrup that then has been processed with an enzyme to convert it to mainly fructose.


Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2015, 01:12:35 PM »
Quote from: PeterXXL
, as it's made from raw corn syrup that then has been processed with an enzyme to convert it to mainly fructose.
I always thought Karo was 50/50 glucose/fructose, like invert sugar.  However, this morning I found a chemical analysis of Karo brand 'Light' corn syrup.  As it turns out, there is no fructose in it at all, the two sugars are 13% glucose and 12% maltose.  The rest is mostly water.

Quote from: http://blog.fooducate.com/2012/09/28/corn-syrups-secret-labeling-trick-revealed-part-1-of-2/
...To try and answer the question, we sent a sample of Karo corn syrup to Anresco laboratories for a Sugars Analysis. The results came back w ithin a couple of weeks:
...

You can see the analysis report here.

The reason for mixing 2 different sugars together is to keep them from crystalizing. 
 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline PeterXXL

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2015, 03:32:04 PM »
Hmmm... interesting.

I have earlier bought maltose and used it for reduction, and it behaves the same way as glucose. I cannot confirm that it's better or worse than glucose. I have read that maltose is supposed to create the smallest silver nanoparticles, but that was from a reduction of silver nitrate. Based on the color of the result, they look the same (reduction of silver oxide during elektrolysis). I will test to see now if there's any visible difference (color) when making the reduction based on silver nitrate.   

Offline Argentum

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2015, 04:42:45 PM »
I keep my diluted corn syrup in the fridge, and never had it go bad there.

I think I'll do the same, as it would be better then opening the Karo bottle each time. And it is easier to measure the volume used.

Argentum

Offline PeterXXL

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015, 04:46:04 PM »
I just made two batches of 100 ml of 20 mg (200 ppm) colloidal silver. 100 ml deionized water + with 0.1 ml 1-mol sodium carbonate + maltose (left AND glucose (right) as molar solutions enough for the reduction, then waited til boiling starts, and then slowly added drop by drop 2 ml of 0.0927 mol silver nitrate.

The left (maltose) remained stable although some turbidity can be seen in the 100 ml 200 ppm concentration when finished, but after dilution to 20 ppm, it was yellow clear.

The right (glucose) was clear after the first few drops but then became more and more turbid, and the final concentration is milky-like. After dulution to 20 ppm it was like duluted milky.

So apparently, there's a big difference in stabilizing effect between maltose and glucose.

Picture:  http://imgur.com/eXA9zkZ
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 08:52:49 PM by PeterXXL »

Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2015, 05:10:23 PM »
Well maltose is twice as big as glucose.  One more link in the chain, and it would be called maltodextrin.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015, 05:46:43 PM »
WoW, Very surprised to find out Karo was not a Dextrose/Fructose mix.

I have used all 3 separately for reducing 20 PPM IS to colloidal silver. (Dex, Fruc, Maltose......all in pure powdered form).  I can't say for certain which is superior but they are quite different from one another. Here are some of the differences I have seen:

* Most noticeable difference is that when you compare Dextrose (Glucose) to Maltose for reducing the Dex is lightning fast in comparison to Maltose and you need quite a bit more Maltose than Dex to get full reduction. The Dex reduces in seconds or minutes (depending on temp) whereas the Maltose takes hours.

* The total amount of turbidity for the Dex is greater than that of Maltose. Depending on amount of ELectrolyte used, they both appear relatively clear in normal lighting conditions but if you shine a bright focused beam flashlight through them the difference is quite noticeable. The colors you see in that focused beam are also different.

* The Dex and Fructose are most similar to each other which makes complete sense since Dextrose (Glucose) is very close to being the mirror image of Fructose as far as molecular structure. Using a normal amount of electrolyte (1 ml/L) the resultant colloidal silver is almost identical.  If you use way less than the norm then there are more differences between the two. It is my understanding that under the right conditions, Dextrose can turn into Fructose & vice versa and the two wind up in an equilibrium situation.

*Etc.

Pretty amazing how differently they act given that Maltose is just 2 Dextrose (Glucose) Molecules hooked together in the middle.

So if Karo is actually a Dex/Malt mixture then it seems that the Dex is doing the reducing & Maltose is just along for the ride or perhaps the maltose provides some extra stabilization.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline Argentum

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2015, 10:42:24 PM »
So apparently, there's a big difference in stabilizing effect between maltose and glucose.

Picture:  http://imgur.com/eXA9zkZ

Dramatic difference between the maltose & glucose reduced colloidal silver. The batches I made with the Sweet & Low are still yellow, just with easily seen turbidity.

Our results show that glucose is not always a good reducing agent. It appears to work when used with gelatine as I have successfully used it for 40 PPM gel-capped. But not with 20 PPM un-capped colloidal silver.

Argentum

Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2015, 10:58:20 PM »
Quote
Our results show that glucose is not always a good reducing agent.
Its always a good reducing agent, but not a good stabilizer. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline Gene

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2015, 11:26:13 PM »
So since the label on Karo light says "corn syrup, ..."  how does "corn syrup" turn into a mix of sugars with no fructose?  Sounds to me like the manufacturer is lying?

I never liked Karo for reduction.  I really like how straight glucose reduces so thats what I use.

At least with glucose I know exactly what I have and exactly how much I've added.

I've noticed no turbidity reducing with glucose even to 50PPM.



Offline Gene

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015, 12:28:40 AM »
OK, but the label on Karo light says "corn syrup, salt, vanilla" so if corn syrup is a starch where do the sugars come from?

And then with that low amount of sugars, doesn't it mean your calculation for how much needs to be used is a little on the low side for reduction?  Yeah, I know everyone uses more but...  Not saying anything bad here - just with this new information, it seems to me you absolutely do need more, right?

Offline RickinWI

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015, 12:57:41 AM »
I think the calculated minimum amount for a full Liter of 20 PPM is REALLY tiny like about 0.02 gm. of Dextrose (Glucose). 
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: 20 PPM Colloidal Silver turbidity issue and the fix
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2015, 12:58:24 AM »
I said it was made from starch, not that it was starch.  Starch is a lot of linked glucose molecules, so by breaking apart starch, you could make dextrin, maltodextrin, maltose, and glucose. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.