Author Topic: Colloidal Silver Color Samples  (Read 64660 times)

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2017, 10:39:50 PM »
gandolf,

  The remarks about the SilverTron are very rude and uncalled for!  And apologizing for being rude or blunt or whatever you call your less than sincere comments is ludicrous.


Bobby and keprha,

I did not intend for my comments to be rude or in anyway as an attack on kephra or the SiverTron units.

Kephra knows probably 1000X more than any other person in the colloidal silver industry.  He is the only person anyone should listen too if you are making and using colloidal silver for personal use.  The SilverTron units are a reliable gold standard for colloidal silver generators and I completely agree that the other units out there are unreliable if not simply dangerous.  Kephra also has vastly more process and chemical knowledge than probably anyone ever in the colloidal silver world.  That is actually much more important than the generator itself since kephra knows how to make it work very well.

I am an outsider.  I see the colloidal silver world from many perspectives.  There are 10,000X more people using three batteries and wire than SilverTron users and that really should change.  I am not here to change the SilverTron, kephra, or you guys here.  You are already in fine hands.  But in the colloidal silver users world you are the 0.01%  Just look at all the stupid colloidal silver videos on you tube that have over 100,000 views.  They must be doing something right...  :o

Trying to convince others is very difficult.  They are religious about what they think is right and they will not easily change from making colloidal silver exactly the same way their grand dad made it.  And then there are people out there that will tell folks anything to sell them a resistor and and LED in a box...
The only way to really convince them is to show them directly or have them try and test things themselves.  Unfortunately, they will not buy an Elite II or read the articles simply because we tell them too.  We wish they would, but they won't. 

However, you can get them to try things for themselves.  Cell voltage is a perfect example since just about anyone can try high and low voltages and see the difference.  Then you can tell them why that happens (if you know).  Then you can get them to play with colors and concentrations and ionic and reduced solutions.  Maybe even get them to use a timer.  Trying to get them to use washing soda in their Colloidal Silver is a giant step.  They think washing soda is just for cleaning socks....
At least they are pretty good about using pure silver and distilled water.  But if they really do it perfectly that won't work and then they go back to using rainwater and old quarters they bought at the flea market.

So I probably won't change you guys here even if I do see a minor problem here or there.  That's fine.  But I would like to change a few other people's minds.
Don't worry, I won't try and convince anyone to go buy $20,000 of electronic test equipment.  But I might try to tell them exactly what it is doing and mention that a guy sells these SilverTron units that do the exact same thing automatically.  They will ask a lot of stupid questions and I would like to have the answers to some of the weirder ones.

So I ask questions here and try odd and stupid things.  But there are thousands of people out there that are doing even odder things than me every day.  In order to try and tell them anything, you have to walk in their shoes too.  It really helps if they ask "Have you ever tried to make the silver with a Tesla coil?" if you can answer - yes...

I will try and be a little less annoying.  I think I am at the point now of working on things that are outside of this forum's general interest.  But don't worry I won't go far.   ;)

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2017, 01:15:45 AM »
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Actually, I have done something very close using a high voltage neon sign transformer.  It lead to the discovery that silver will heat reduce at temperatures near boiling.

Nice!  But I must super warn everyone NEVER do what this moron does...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQwo78Q9gkQ

I assume this guy killed himself since...

Microwave oven transformers are just about at the very same voltage, current, DC (with the typical voltage doubler of old microwaves) of electric chair death machines....

Never play with high voltages in this sport unless you know way too much......

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That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

I imagine it as a simple current controller with a uC to do the coulomb time integration.

But maybe it can do more.  I know what I "wish" t could do. :-*

But it is totally proprietary and there is really zero info as to what is inside it.  Which is fine in this case.

BTW- I never meant for my comments to drive this nice color thread so off topic....  :(

Perhaps all this BS should just be deleted from this thread...

That would be fine with me.  And I apologize for some how starting the OT.  I did bad...  :-[

BBTW - Most of the whiny complaints I mentioned have now been solved!  The field stress issue solution is too obvious and dumb to mention...   :-[


i_vanovich

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2017, 03:04:33 AM »
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
can this mean chemical conversion from electricity is occurring with off time?
or effect of electrolytic reversal?

if yes
how will differentiation with reverse polarity become established?

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2017, 12:16:04 PM »
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
can this mean chemical conversion from electricity is occurring with off time?
or effect of electrolytic reversal?

if yes
how will differentiation with reverse polarity become established?
If the anode is simply disconnected during the off-time, there is no current flow so no reverse plating but the cell will exhibit some open circuit voltage.  The amount of voltage depends on the electrolyte, concentration of the electrolyte, pH, and cell temperature.  This is basically a silver and silver-oxide battery cell during the off time.  The electrode which is more chemically reactive will be the negative. 

If the anode is grounded during the off time, then there will be some current flow and there will be reverse plating until the cell is discharged.

Pulse width modulation (turning the power to the anode on and off to get an average current) doesn't make any sense, and is an overall detriment to the process.  Reversing polarity is even worse as it destroys the ability to predict how much silver goes into solution.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 01:33:46 PM by kephra »
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Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2017, 01:32:20 PM »
...
Quote
That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

I imagine it as a simple current controller with a uC to do the coulomb time integration.

But maybe it can do more.  I know what I "wish" t could do. :-*
What?  Turn lead into gold perhaps?  I wish it could do that too.

But I was not referring to the SilverTron, I was referring to your lack of knowledge of the process. 
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But it is totally proprietary and there is really zero info as to what is inside it.  Which is fine in this case.
That is another unwarranted assumption.  I have told everyone how it works on this forum, and even posted pictures of the circuit boards and construction.  Maybe you should check your facts before making such statements.  I have even stated where the inspiration for the SilverTron Elite came from.
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...
BBTW - Most of the whiny complaints I mentioned have now been solved!  The field stress issue solution is too obvious and dumb to mention...   :-[
Field stress is not a problem and has never been a problem as I have already explained in other posts if a person follows my process recommendations.  If you have a problem, you are doing something wrong.

The purpose of this forum is to show people how to make their own high quality and effective Colloidal Silver using non-toxic readily available materials.  I believe I have been very successful at that.  The forum will soon turn 9 years old.  Although there are only 250 members at this time (because I delete people who have not been active for a period of time), thousands of people came here, learned what they needed, and moved on.  You (gandolf) are member number 11345. 

So far, you have contributed nothing of value to that endeavor.  I have no idea why you want to experiment with Colloidal Silver, since you are not interested in the health aspects, but the rest of us are... that is why we are here.  You continually allude to knowing more than me or the rest of the forum, but you have shown nothing except how to fail.  We already knew that.  You seem like a person who looks at 3 trees and then professes to know everything about the forest.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

i_vanovich

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2017, 04:32:51 PM »
If the anode is grounded during the off time, then there will be some current flow and there will be reverse plating until the cell is discharged.
thank-you with detailing this explanation

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2017, 07:38:05 PM »
I thought this was interesting.



They are all 0.2 liter with 2 inch 12ga. wire electrodes spaced 2.25 inches apart.  The cathode is fully inserted like the anode.  The usual 1mMol/L of Na2CO3 and put in 1mMol/l Glucose after the runs.
They are all 20ppm with 3.6 Coulomb used for 0.2 liters.
The voltage across the cell was 25.0 volts and the current was varied (from left to right) as 20, 10, 5, 2.5, 1.25 and 0.63 mA.
This is using a current pulse with system at 977Hz with the circuit going open (not grounded) during the off time.
They were magnetically stirred at room temperature.  The cell resistances where around 1.21 kOhms.  The galvanic off voltages where 2.1 volts and the left three and varied greatly on the other three.

The left most one at 20mA was darker.  Probably larger particles but I did note that the cathode was "smoking" stuff* into the solution which apparently dissolves since the final solution is completely clear.  The current duty cycle was 89%
One interesting thing is that the anode was very easy to clean after the run.  It was just sort of a light gray.  Perhaps the higher current makes the silver oxide not stick as much.  It also only ran for 3 minutes at this current.

The next 10 mA was lighter and more what we are used to.  There might have been just a hint of smoke off the cathode.  The anode was harder to clean.  The current duty cycle was 48%.

The 5ma sample looked completely normal and what we are used to.  It was the lightest yellow.  The anode was still harder to clean and the cathode had a slight cast to it.  It seems exactly like the same stuff made with DC and a slightly inserted cathode at 5mA.  The current duty cycle was 24%

The 2.5 mA sample was a bit darker and just very slightly milkish cloudy but you would not notice if it was not next to the others.  The galvanic off voltage was a bit lower at 1.8 volts (the voltage starts to drop off at 3mA).  It was probably showing the first signs of low galvanic voltage.  The anode on this and the rest were tough to clean.  The current duty cycle was 11.5%.

The 1.25mA sample only had a galvanic off voltage of 0.5V and was darker and pretty cloudy.  It had that messed up look to it.  The current duty cycle was 5.2%.

The 0.65mA sample was darker still and more cloudy.  The galvanic voltage was about 400mV and the current duty cycle was only 2.9%.

So it looks like higher currents like 10 and especially 20 mA made larger particles and darker solutions.  But the anodes were easier to clean and it ran very fast at 3 and 6 minutes.  5mA looked the most "perfect" and what we are used to seeing.  2.5mA was not bad but it do show a few slight signs of trouble.  1.5 and 0.65mA had low galvanic off voltages and were dark and cloudy.

Some variables would be the electrode size and spacing with would vary the cell resistance.  That would also vary the current duty cycle for a given current and duty cycle has a large effect on the galvanic voltage.

So you can make Colloidal Silver with pulsed current.  Is it just a whole lot harder and more can go wrong.  But it does allow one see some interesting effects.  Personally, I find it fascinating!

*Do we know what that "smoke" off the cathode is and does it have an official name?

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2017, 11:21:11 PM »
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Once again, you have shown why PWM is not a good idea.

Yes.  Normal folks should NEVER get a PWM based Colloidal Silver machine*...  There is a LOT that can go wrong!  They are fairly tame at higher currents but at lower currents (low current duty cycle) the low galvanic voltages are a giant killer mess!  And then there are the PWM current and coulomb  calculations (what could possible go wrong  ;D  I finally figured out why I need a Coulomb calibration factor of 1.03765)...   But as a purely scientific tool PWM tools do help track down the odd effects.   ;)

The higher currents are interesting in that the electrodes are cleaner.  It is also much faster.  But larger particles are the downfall.  But that is a "choice" between purist and the impatient folks  ;)


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Its a mixture of silver salts that precipitated in the diffusion layer.  Its mostly silver oxide with a little silver carbonate.

I am curious about one point that kephra may know right off.  In the DC case using a little tiny cathode surface area (cathode mostly pulled out of the solution) to get the cell voltage up we see the electrode smoke off all those silver salts.  In the big cathode surface under PWM case we don't "see" that with the eyes.

But I have a funny feeling that the silver salts/oxides going into the solution are just the same either way.  With the small surface, the salts+ production is just visible and in the large cathode (same current with PWM)  case we just can't "see" it.  But in the end, the amounts of silver salts+ going into the solution is just the same either way?

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At least thats what happens with a glass jar.

Glass has a relative permittivity of 4.7 and  plastics are in the same range.  But plastics are "plastic" so they have a lot of "issues..."  :o   All that oily stuff might mess up the plating and stickyness...


*I have a long list of very interesting questions to ask makers of PWM based Colloidal Silver machines that I bet they don't have answers too  ;D  ;D 


Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2017, 01:40:05 PM »
...I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.
Nobody on this forum, I repeat nobody, has used, made, experimented with, or made Colloidal Silver with as many different commercial machines than me.

I can categorically state that the SilverTron is

i) as near perfect as it is possible to make a machine (I don't have the latest revision of the Elite firmware, but that does not alter the process or affect its' capabilities).

ii) the ONLY way to make Colloidal Silver to an accurate ppm for injection without electrolyte. (This may not be an issue, as we have had a qualified Doctor in Africa, where they do not see fit to trouble the AMA or BMA with requests to be allowed to prescribe things which work, but which are not necessarily approved-of by Big Pharma, use it with great success). However, it does mean that the product can be made very slowly with great accuracy.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2017, 10:54:10 PM »
I made some with regulated DC voltage for comparison.  The four new ones are in the front color matched to the earlier tests.



Only an occasional 50uS off time to measure the galvanic voltage.  One thing (perhaps the only thing) current pulsing IS good for!   ;D
They are all 0.2 liter with 2 inch 12ga. wire electrodes spaced 2.25 inches apart.  The cathode is fully inserted like the anode.  The usual 1mMol/L of Na2CO3 and put in 1mMol/l Glucose after the runs.
They are all 20ppm with 3.6 Coulomb used for 0.2 liters.

The first one on the front left is 20.0VDC.  The current was 14.37mADC and the galvanic voltage was 2.3V.  This made lots of precipitation at the cathode.  But like kephre says it actually does just dissolve into the solution with a little time.  At the end of a run at this level it might be a good idea to stir it a little while until all this is dissolved before adding the Karo.  I wonder if the precipitate could be made in a powdered form to make colloidal silver just by adding a powder to distilled water.  Sort of like powdered Gatoraid?  Probably not very shelf stable especially if it had to be mixed with NaCO3 and Glucose powder*.

The second sample from the left is 10.0VDC at 6.73mA.  The galvanic voltage is 2.04V fairly clear and this turned out only slightly darker than the normal 5mA stuff.  Looked perfectly good and normal really.

The third sample is 5V at 2.74mA.  The galvanic voltage started to drop a little to 1.92V and it shows a little low voltage trouble but not noticeable unless compared to the others.

The last sample is at 2.5V, 1.60mA with a galvanic voltage of only 0.64 volts.  This has the full orange milky look to it caused by low voltage.

So the results actually turned out just as expected.  So after two months I am starting to get a little good at this stuff  ;D  I should have just bought a SilverTron......   ;)  But I know a whole lot more by designing and building my own car and understanding exactly how it works rather that just going over to Ford and buying another Mustang.   ;)

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We want silver salts, mainly silver oxide to be IN SOLUTION.  What you see as smoke is the same silver salts precipitated out because they exceeded the solubility limit in the diffusion layer.  How long it takes those particles to redissolve depends on how big the crystals have grown in the diffusion layer. 
Yes!  I made a bunch and sat there are watched it dissolve!  I guess it is good stuff after all.  And I bet no matter if you see it or not the net amount is pretty much exactly the same no matter what "good" process is used.

But I am thinking if one uses high currents for faster production one should wait after a run until all the precipitates are fully stirred and dissolved in before adding the reducer.

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cfnisbet
Nobody on this forum, I repeat nobody, has used, made, experimented with, or made colloidal silver with as many different commercial machines than me.

I can categorically state that the SilverTron is...

The SilverTron is a cool uC controlled current source and Coulomb counter...  Any kid can make the first one and any EE can make the second.
But what really makes the SilverTron THE magic machine is the pure genius Bill has put into it this whole sport!  His great knowledge of chemistry and electronics came together to just solve this whole world!

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ii) the ONLY way to make colloidal silver to an accurate ppm for injection without electrolyte. ... However, it does mean that the product can be made very slowly with great accuracy.
Micro and nano amps  :D  While still keeping the voltage high  ???  --  Oh...  I guess if the resistance is 250000 Ohms keeping the voltage high is pretty easy!   :)

I have not believed anything in the colloidal silver world unless I can prove it for myself.  Of course, I have no knowledge in most of this so the learning was hard and I messed up many times.  However, I have never been able to disprove or fault Bill on anything!  If he was BSing us, I would have found it by now. 
Most colloidal silver guru's get ignored after watching their youtube videos for 15 seconds........
But Bills genius and thought behind all this really had made this a fascinating and great journey for me!

*The pharmaceutical folks have a ton of ways to fix that...  Colloidal silver "timed release"....  Ambien - $3  AmbienCR - $105!!!!  Those F.......  Must stop commenting now... ;)


« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 11:05:32 PM by gandolf »

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2017, 02:43:59 PM »
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Yes!  I made a bunch and sat there are watched it dissolve!  I guess it is good stuff after all.  And I bet no matter if you see it or not the net amount is pretty much exactly the same no matter what "good" process is used.

But I am thinking if one uses high currents for faster production one should wait after a run until all the precipitates are fully stirred and dissolved in before adding the reducer.
You can buy silver oxide commercially.  It dissolves very very slowly.  I tried making 20 ppm Colloidal Silver by dissolving silver oxide powder. It took a month for it to dissolve.  The dissolution time depends on the size of the crystals.  The smaller the crystals, the quicker they dissolve.

Its really not good to have silver oxide crystals streaming from the anode, since these crystals are not in solution and not ionic, they are not current carriers.  This means they are not included in the current/time relationship for ppm.  If there are still undissolved silver oxide crystals at the end of electrolysis, when they finally dissolve, the ppm will be higher than predicted. 

Vigorous stirring decreases the dissolution time, and also scrubs the diffusion layer preventing silver oxide from building up past its solubility limit.  This allows the use of a much smaller anode.  Without the stirring, a larger anode helps keep the ionic silver within the diffusion layer from reaching saturation.

BTW, you said you had 'smoke' coming off the cathode.  I think you meant anode.  The anode is the electrode where oxidation occurs, so the anode in an electrolysis cell is the positive electrode.  In a galvanic cell, it is the negative electrode.

There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline Neofizz

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2017, 06:49:42 PM »
I see the 'smoke' coming off the cathode (not the anode) when I do my runs. I figured it was gas being produced. When making 320 PPM the gelatin seems to make them (the gas bubbles) linger and get caught up in the vortex. The result is that for about the first half of my 320 PPM runs there is foam on top and swirling around in the vortex.
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2017, 07:53:50 PM »
Yes, Smoke coming off the negative electrode is not silver oxide, it is hydrogen gas from sodium reacting with water.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 03:43:23 AM by kephra »
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2017, 04:29:42 AM »
Yes, Smoke coming off the negative electrode is not silver oxide, it is hydrogen gas from sodium reacting with water.

Yes I see.  The smoke of the cathode is indeed tiny bubbles of hydrogen.  They make the stirring water very sparkley under laser light.  Once stirring is stopped they disappear very quickly.

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Its really not good to have silver oxide crystals streaming from the anode, since these crystals are not in solution and not ionic, they are not current carriers.  This means they are not included in the current/time relationship for ppm.  If there are still undissolved silver oxide crystals at the end of electrolysis, when they finally dissolve, the ppm will be higher than predicted. 

I understand.  So if you do see any "smoke" coming off the anode you need to turn the current down.

Thanks for the insight into this!

Gina

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2017, 06:09:59 PM »
I made my first batch last night I LOVE this machine thank you kephra it turned out awesome!!!