Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Colloidal Silver Production => Topic started by: FromTheDen on December 30, 2020, 04:40:52 PM

Title: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: FromTheDen on December 30, 2020, 04:40:52 PM
There are several posts with a reference to this formula for calculating how much glucose to use:
     PPM * volume(ml) /16000

This formula yields 20 drops for 1 liter of 320ppm (320*1000/16000=20).

The resulting (diluted) colloidal silver has a metallic taste, indicating ionic content.

The quick start recipe for 320ppm suggests 15 drops for 250ml, which would be 60 drops for 1 liter. That would seem more reasonable.

The irrelevance of the formula becomes even more apparent when doing a calculation for a liter of 20ppm:
20*1000/16000=1.25 drops of glucose. The quick start recipe for 20ppm has 8-12 drops for 1 liter.

I suggest that the PPM * volume(ml) /16000 formula does not result in a sufficient amount of reducing agent. It might be adding notes to the relevant posts to dispel the potential for confusion (simple search on 16000).

Calculating the glucose reducer quantity for various concentrations might be better achieved by interpolating between the 20ppm & 320ppm recipes.

If I have misinterpreted somehow, please let me know.

Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on December 31, 2020, 03:09:47 AM
First off, that formula is for Karo, 50/50 diluted with alcohol, not glucose.  For glucose you'd need far less.

That formula came from Kephra.

For glucose, the formula is:

PPM * <liters> * 0.8335

with the result in milligrams of glucose.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using more.  More will have reduction happen more quickly for more glucose reducing groups being made available to find and rip the oxygen off the silver oxide particles.

But perhaps, if you're saying that you believe the formula to be in error, Kephra could chime in on this one.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: FromTheDen on December 31, 2020, 04:25:24 PM
Thanks, Gene, my bad on the terminology. I meant 50/50 diluted Karo, not glucose.

I may be applying the formula incorrectly, but when I plug in the numbers the result is not enough Karo mix to fully reduce or match the quick start recipes.

Gene, you reminded me of a request I would like to have added to the Articles section: Something short & sweet on mixing Karo for a reducer--or at least an update to the "Making Colloidal Silver -- Part 2 - Production Techniques", which still specifies mixing Karo equally with distilled water. I quit using water diluted Karo because it kept going bad, and began using maltodextrin instead. It was only after several years of monitoring this forum that I stumbled across a post suggesting diluting Karo with vodka instead. This is a wonderful solution that should be clearly provided in a logical location.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on December 31, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
Yeah, Karo/vodka works amazingly well. You can leave a dropper bottle of it out on the kitchen table forever and it never evolves life.  Thats what I do.

This article addresses perhaps some of your questions:

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

If it doesn't take you to a post by PeterXXL he entitled

How to calculate how much of a reducing agent that is needed to reduce silver oxide (ionic silver) made from/during electrolysis.

From June 19, 2015, you may have to scroll forward or back some.  For me its the last post on page 2 of the thread.

There is a wealth of knowledge here.  The sub-par search facility makes it difficult to find at times (sigh).
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: FromTheDen on January 01, 2021, 03:57:10 AM
Thanks, Gene, your link took me right to PeterXXL's excellent article.

Since I can gather the correct amount of diluted Karo from the quick-start recipe, I am less concerned about how much to use than I am about figuring out how I could be misinterpreting the general formula for calculating how much to use: PPM * volume(ml) /16000. It just seems to indicate way too little diluted Karo. And that formula is in a number of posts.

My concern is that if I am confused, perhaps others are too.

On another tangent, I have brewed gallons of 320ppm using maltodextrin as a reducer, and I just stumbled across a concern Kephra expressed that maltodextrin may not be the best choice for 320ppm because it has such a strong capping affinity that it may beat out gelatin and result in a less stable solution. Ack! All the more reason to get the Karo quantity nailed down & use vodka to dilute it.

Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: kephra on January 01, 2021, 02:03:23 PM
Quote
Since I can gather the correct amount of diluted Karo from the quick-start recipe, I am less concerned about how much to use than I am about figuring out how I could be misinterpreting the general formula for calculating how much to use: PPM * volume(ml) /16000. It just seems to indicate way too little diluted Karo. And that formula is in a number of posts.
I am skeptical of the formula.  Is the result in grams, milligrams, or ml of Karo. 
Also, I'm not sure anymore of the actual composition of Karo.

Here's the latest analysis I found:
Quote from: https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evj.12826
Analysis of the corn syrup (Karo Light Corn Syrup)a using the following method (Longland, personal communication) found it to contain 356.3 mg/mL of maltose and glucose combined ...
But this analysis does not agree with the label on the Karo which claims 120 calories per 30 ml of Karo.
From the analysis above, Karo would have only 43 calories per 30ml, instead of 120.  Any type of sugar has 4 calories per gram of solid weight.
IE: 30 ml of KARO * .356 gr/ml = 10.6 grams combined sugar.  <-- by the veterinary analysis
30 ml 0f Karo = 120 calories = 30 grams of combined sugar <-- by the label.

Obviously, these numbers do not agree.  Also, we do not know the weight of 30ml of Karo (we could weigh it), so we do not know how much water there is in it.  This would suggest that there is less sugar per ml.  One of these numbers or both are incorrect. 

Then there is the problem of the ratio of glucose to maltose.  When making a syrup, two different kinds of sugars have to be used to keep the syrup from crystallizing.  Normally, the ratio would be half and half by molecular weights.  That is one molecule of glucose and one molecule of maltose.  Assuming the one to one ratio of molecules, and that a molecule of maltose weighs twice as much as a molecule of glucose, then there would be a one to two ratio of glucose to maltose by weight.

The point is that there is not enough solid data to calculate the amount of Karo based on ppm and volume.  If anything, the formula result is too low.  Basing the formula on the veterinary analysis would be safer.




Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 01, 2021, 09:02:22 PM
I did not originate that PPM * ml / 16000 formula.

What I was remembering is that it came from Kephra but for some reason (sub-par search facility?) I can't find it the original post now.

If it didn't come from someone I trusted, I would not have said anything.

I see in this post that cfnisbet is reiterating the same formula though no clue where he found it.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4965.msg42718#msg42718

I'm going to keep searching because for sure I didn't invent that formula.

Perhaps Karo has changed over time. Labels lie all the time. Who checks them? Right?

I'm wondering though.  Could we make our own "karo" by using glucose and maltodextrin so we know exactly how much there is?

Its been said that maltodextrin by itself isn't recommended for making higher PPM's.  I've had no issue up to the 120PPM I make normally but perhaps over that whats been stated happens (I have no way to verify it).

I like how clear the resulting Colloidal Silver comes out using maltodextrin though but 50/50 karo is much easier.  But if we can't figure out what the correct ratio of dextrose to maltose to water is anymore, unless you use 2-3x I guess, Karo may be a bad choice these days.

Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: kephra on January 02, 2021, 12:12:09 AM
I searched the original forum files, and did not find the source.
Personally, I use 8 times the amount that formula gives.  So for a 1 liter batch of 40 ppm, I use 20 drops approximately, and it works perfectly every time. 
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 02, 2021, 04:21:34 AM
I think I found the source and it was from you, Bill.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3068.msg25484#msg25484

In your post dated March 2, 2016, you said...

-----------------------
Use the appropriate amount of reducing agent (based on water volume and ppm) IE: 4 to 5 drops diluted corn syrup for 1 cup of 320 ppm colloidal silver (ppm*milliliters/16000).
-----------------------

I knew I didn't "invent" this and given you were suggesting using 4-5 drops of diluted corn syrup for 250ml of 320PPM, if you used 5 drops, that'd be 16000.

And then here in your quickstart guide, which curiously is April 18, 2012 the amount stated is different.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=758.0

For a 250ml batch of 320PPM you suggest 15 drops of 50:50 diluted karo. This would be a divisor of 5333.

If your current wisdom is a divisor of 2000 given the confusion as to exactly what the makeup of Karo is, the information on the forum needs to be updated.  Lots of people use Karo, including me.

In Bell Labs, we used to call it Best Current Practices.  Things change over time and we will adapt and make changes and update our procedures as needed but today, this is the best way we know how...

For me, making 900ml batches (most that fits in a 1 quart mason jar as 1 quart is to the very top of the rim which seems stupid to me - it should be to the ring at the bottom of the neck but it isn't) at 120PPM, this would dictate needing 54 drops (about 2.7ml).  So half a teaspoon plus maybe half an eye dropper more for good measure.

It matters little to me and others I'm sure.  We all just want to get it right.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: kephra on January 02, 2021, 02:11:06 PM
Quote
I think I found the source and it was from you, Bill.
It may have been, but where did I get it?  If I had derived it, I would have shown the math, as I did for the derivation of 15ma-mins for the electrolysis.

What do you think the formula recomendation should be?



Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: FromTheDen on January 05, 2021, 06:24:42 PM
I assume people have successfully been making 320ppm with the quick start recommendation of 15 drops of diluted Karo/250ml, which would be 60 drops for 1 liter.

Extrapolating from the 20ppm quick start recipe, 320ppm would require 16*2-3 or 32-48 drops/250ml (128-192 drops/liter).

I have long used maltodextrin (4.275g/l from the calculator spreadsheet)--not realizing it could be beating out the gelatin in capping and being less stable. Shelf-wise it was plenty stable, but perhaps not so much in the stomach.

I just decided to try Karo again, forgot about the quick start recipe and went with the 20 drops suggested by 320*1000/16000. The result was plating on my beaker & a metallic taste with the result--both evidences of insufficient reducer.

From the 20ppm extrapolation, 15 drops/250ml would seem to be an absolute minimum for 320ppm, with twice that amount being a good possibility.

What results have people had with 15 drops diluted Karo for 250ml of gelatin capped 320ppm?
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 05, 2021, 06:53:41 PM
Quoting an old post:

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3971.msg33749#msg33749


The issue with heat is because you are making 40 ppm, which exceeds the solubility of silver oxides.  Heat raises the solubility of the ionic silver.  As it cools though, it starts to precipitate which is what causes the trouble.
 I have made a lot of 20 ppm cold without any problems.  But as you go higher in ppm, you must reduce the silver faster than it is generated to prevent it from precipitating.  Also, as you go higher in ppm, you need stronger capping agents.  Maltodextrin is a better capping agent than Karo, and gelatin is better than Maltodextrin.

Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: FromTheDen on January 05, 2021, 07:45:01 PM
@nix2p: Since the operating temp was near boiling, heat was not the problem. Gelatin was used for capping. There was no precipitate. When there is beaker silvering Kephra suggests that there is not enough Karo (https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3955.msg42422#msg42422 (https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3955.msg42422#msg42422)). A metallic taste indicates ionic (unreduced) content, also pointing to not enough Karo. It is clear that 20 drops of diluted Karo for 1 liter of 320ppm is not sufficient. 60 drops may be enough, 120 might be better. The good news is too much won't hurt anything.

The remaining question is how much diluted Karo are people using to completely reduce 320ppm Colloidal Silver?
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 05, 2021, 08:20:17 PM
@ FromTheDen;

Quoting Kephra:

Quote
Then there is the problem of the ratio of glucose to maltose.  When making a syrup,

two different kinds of sugars have to be used to keep the syrup from crystallizing.


..."Avoidable becomes more unavoidable"; and chicken soup cannot be done with "other stuff"/

ingrediencies'.


To obtain correct facts i believe we need ingrediencies (from sources we trust) and make our own Karo-

Light-syrup. Gets even slimmer of a chance; who is going to do it!

Nix 


Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 05, 2021, 09:22:37 PM
And that was along the lines of my question. Can we "make" a standardized glucose/maltodextrin reducing agent that works well for everything from 20PPM all the way up to 320PPM?

For making 80PPM naked (I always keep a quart around for topical and stomach problems), I'll still use straight maltodextrin as its a strong stabilizer but for anything else I'd be gel-capping it and as such, the reducer only has to reduce well since the gelatine works as the stabilizer.

And I process normally at 150F so length of time to reduce becomes a non-issue as long as I add the reducer at the beginning of the run.  It takes me at 10ma about an hour to build up a 40PPM level (heading towards the normal 120PPM I make) and at that temp, there ain't a reducer we'd use that wouldn't get the job done in time.

The issue is complete reduction with enough guard-band so that no matter what happens, its more than enough.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 06, 2021, 06:12:02 PM

At present we are concern with two types of Colloidal Silver:

1). Colloidal Silver - for EXTERIOR use;

2). Colloidal Silver for DRINKING - CAPPED.



As mentioned before by Kephra, and others:

a). Glucose, Maltose, Corn Syrup, Maltodextrin, Cinnamon Extract, And Gelatin all cap silver.  Glucose is weakest, and Gelatin is the strongest, because it is the largest molecule in the list.

---------------------------
Gelatin has the added advantage in that it resists stomach acids because protein digestion is mainly done in the small intestine. And that test was done.

b). Gelatin holds particles in suspension.  So you might be making a lot of silver oxide particles and not seeing it because of the gelatin holding it in suspension.

BUT,

c). somewhere on these threads, Kephra is saying: "I'm not satisfied with it yet". And I believe was referring to Karo syrup - mostly, (I think)!

d). Looking at "a)." and from "some" to complete, or "full extent", these ingrediencies are CAPPING and to what extent if OVER the "measured/concluded amount", are TO BE added? Yes, we are talking about interaction - in actual usage.

In the end, what do I know! Would "d).", be a good starting point?

Regards

Nix
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 06, 2021, 07:27:30 PM
Well, other than gelatine, I wouldn't consider the others "capping agents". They're reducers and depending on their makeup, good average or bad STABILIZERS (which is not the same thing - at least what I believe anyway).

We need a good reducer where we can, with a formula, accurately compute the minimum needed and then maybe go 50-100% over this, maybe 200% even to not only make sure it reduces all the silver oxide but also, does it quickly enough.  As I recall being said, excess reducer helps to reduce silver oxide faster simply because there's more of it so the distribution in the DW is higher so those reducer molecules find silver oxide particles to reduce that much more quickly.  Kind of makes sense to me.

The big question is, given Karo is so variable, like maltodextrin, where we do have an equation that works for all DE equivalents of maltodextrin, can we come up with an accurate formula for Karo or is it simply too variable where perhaps the chemical analysis as stated on the label is pure fiction?  If we can't, yeah, we can use 4-8x the amount needed but given we know we can make aqueous solutions of sugars at 50/50 water/alcohol which keeps them from ever evolving life, is there perhaps a different mix we could use that we make ourselves - glucose + maltodextrin + DW + alcohol perhaps that we'd always know the exact amount to use?  And yeah, with maltodextrin, since it varies all over the place, you'd need more which from whats been said becomes contentious with 320PPM for some reason, maybe a 30/30/40 (glucose, maltodextrin, water+alcohol) mix might be a better homebrew "Karo".  That was kind of my thinking but its been a long time since I've been in a chemistry lab so I'd yield to others who would be more familiar with things like this.

I do know that when I do make 80PPM "naked", I use maltodextrin straight as thats a good stabilizer and Colloidal Silver made with it seems not to go bad (I've had karo made go bad and this seems to be the current wisdom - its NOT a good stabilizer over 20PPM).
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 07, 2021, 05:51:41 PM

Let me ask you all;

I'm making a ratio of 75% colloidal Silver and 25% drinking alcohol

to be used as a disinfectant... but with certain alcohols, (drinking type),

it turns darker orange, (not with grain, that 150 proof, forgot the name of it!)


Thanks ahead

Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 07, 2021, 07:48:08 PM
I think you mean that 190 proof Everclear.

The azeotropic ratio for ethanol is 95% meaning they can't get the last 5% water out of it no matter how hard they distill it.  They can by chemical means but that renders it non-ingestible.

Proof is 2x percentage alcohol so 95% = 190 proof.

As for the color change, I have no clue. Perhaps someone else could chime in on this one.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 07, 2021, 09:05:25 PM
@Gene;
151 proof Everclear
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: FromTheDen on January 11, 2021, 04:34:00 PM
I made a batch of 320ppm gelatin capped (1 tsp/liter) with 120 drops (6ml) of diluted Karo. There was no silvering on the beaker and the result was completely tasteless. 

Then I tried a small batch with the quick start recipe for 320ppm with 15 drops/250ml. There was no noticeable silvering of the beaker, but there was a definite metallic taste--not enough reducer!

That would make the minimum general formula: drops diluted Karo = ppm*ml/2500.

Because of the unknown composition of Karo and potential variability, a more conservative formula (as derived by Gene from Kephra's post) would be:
     Drops diluted Karo = ppm*ml/2000 .

The quick start recipe lists 2-3 drops diluted Karo for 20ppm. This latter formula gives 2.5 drops. Nice!

Following the conservative formula, 250ml of 320ppm would require 40 drops of diluted Karo.

I suggest updating the quick start recipe for 320ppm to use 30-40 drops of diluted Karo for 250ml.

Mixing Karo with vodka is not prominently posted. Making reducing agent is so central, it deserves a short pinned article:
Make sense?

Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: kephra on January 11, 2021, 05:36:11 PM
I agree.  I changed it to 40 drops in the quick start.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Josie29 on January 11, 2021, 06:30:12 PM
I am not understanding this new position regarding 40 drops Karo reducing agent (RA) in 250 ml 320 ppm Colloidal Silver.

I have successfully used 5 drops RA up to this point. Good clarity; no metallic taste; no silvering of the container noticeable (until more than one batch made without cleaning the beaker with H2O2).

Please provide a clear explanation.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Josie29 on January 14, 2021, 09:48:01 PM
My question wasn't really a rhetorical question.

Other than 'because it fits the equation,' could someone explain why an 8 fold increase in Karo reducing agent is now recommended?
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 15, 2021, 12:44:32 AM
Go back to the beginning of this topic and read the first post from Kephra. Thats where the change came from and Kephra explained it.

The numbers don't add up and Kephra is being cautious which is something we should all be cognizant of.

Karo is organic. Who knows when the last time the manufacturer updated their label was or if they even test batches to verify the analysis (I'm thinking not). Who knows whether the analysis on the label was ever correct?  A lot of times, manufacturers are trusted in what they say and nobody in our government checks. With a LOT of things. Who knows, if they're not testing each batch, what the variability is for the product from batch to batch? They can't be getting all the corn they use to produce it from the same place and even if they do, crops vary from year to year or even sometimes from crop to crop.

We basically know nothing other than what the label says but as Kephra points out, when you go through the analysis, something does not compute.

Glucose is perhaps the only reducing sugar we can nail dead on because glucose is glucose and if its glucose its always glucose and never varies and the science works. Karo? Maltodextrin? Cinnamon extract and others? Who knows?

For sure with Maltodextrin, given it varies based on dextrose equivalency (if you know the DE you could compute it exactly), where the stuff available in the US anyway is mixed bag where there is no stated DE number, the ONLY thing you can do is compute how much for the worst case DE number (fewest reducing groups, longest sugar molecules) and go with it knowing it will never be this bad so you're safe. You can't ascertain anything else.

Yup, clear as mud.

Our goal here is to use ENOUGH reducer to guarantee ALL the silver oxide is converted to colloidal form, if even that means we have to use an excess of the reducer to guarantee this.  Sadly, because accurate chemical analysis's of reducers other than glucose aren't really available all we can do is figure out what enough is and go with it, now not needing to cross our fingers.

Also, for your example, 320PPM, 250ml where you're using 5 drops, do you think, if you lucked out and got a "good" batch of Karo that you'd be able to tell if you were able to reduce 310PPM of silver oxide with it? Do you actually think that when you dilute that down to 20PPM you'd even notice a difference?  That'd be 0.625PPM at 20PPM dilution unreduced silver oxide.  What about 20PPM (300PPM reduction) which would be 1.25PPM silver oxide?  I kind of doubt it.

Taste is a gross indicator that you're close, not dead on.  And then too, everyone's sense of taste is different and worse yet, taking things like Asprin will reduce your senses sensitivity (including taste) by at least 20% (proven). Something to think about.

Plus, for having an excess of reducer, the density of sugar molecules is greater meaning there are more reducing groups near each silver particle which guarantees a better chance of reduction and also faster reduction because the reducing sugar molecules don't have as far to travel to find a silver oxide particle to reduce or the silver oxide particles don't have as far to go to bump into a reducing sugar molecule.

This is all seat of the pants with as much science as we can wrap around it.  Given the nature of the beast, it will never be exact so you go with extra to guarantee you're good no matter what and call it even.

More reducer never hurts and with Karo, you'd be hard-pressed to taste anything.  Maltodextrin, given how much we have to use to guarantee that a worst case will still reduce all the silver oxide particles you will potentially taste.  Cinnamon? Absolutely! Perhaps others.

And at least for sure, with cinnamon extract, given the distinct flavor, it may mask an incomplete reduction if you don't use enough.

Like I said, clear as mud.  A lot of this is a guideline, not an absolute but all you can do is the best you can and go a little extra to cover things and call it even.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Josie29 on January 15, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
Thank you Gene.

Read your response; re-read the entire topic.

I get it I think!  Karo sources plus purity not really known. Variation in taste buds may 'hide' any metallic taste if Colloidal Silver does not fully reduce. Increase in quantity of Karo does not hurt the final Colloidal Silver product.

Sort of a CYA measure!

[In my case I have used the same Karo bottle for a long, long time. Perhaps this lends to the consistency of my product!?!]
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 15, 2021, 11:12:49 PM
You get it!

This is all seat of the pants with as much science as we can wrap around it.  You do the best you can and yup, CYA.  As I said, for glucose and maltodextrin if you can get single DE rated stuff (for sure in Europe but difficult in the US it seems), the science is absolute.  For pretty much everything else though...

Nothing is ever black and white! NEVER!

If you find a happy medium that works well for you where you're convinced you're getting damn near 100% reduction, stick with it.  A pint bottle of karo will last a lifetime and a half even at the higher amounts.

And no, there's no harm in extra reducer. It just stays sugar because it has nothing to reduce and doesn't harm anything.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 16, 2021, 03:37:58 PM
Go back to the beginning of this topic and read the first post from Kephra. Thats where the change came from and Kephra explained it.

The numbers don't add up and Kephra is being cautious which is something we should all be cognizant of.
...
More reducer never hurts and with Karo, you'd be hard-pressed to taste anything.  Maltodextrin, given how much we have to use to guarantee that a worst case will still reduce all the silver oxide particles you will potentially taste.  Cinnamon? Absolutely! Perhaps others.

And at least for sure, with cinnamon extract, given the distinct flavor, it may mask an incomplete reduction if you don't use enough.


Back some years ego, PeterXXL, did some tests on capping agents, (I believe was in 2016),

however those results I have not being able to locate, or perhaps were never posted!

... Thank you Gene for "demystifying", some of the mechanics. And on another note,

LM317LT, is working perfectly, (subject from another thread, and would not have if you

have not described to some of us having limited knowledge of electronic processes). I was

able to incorporate a potentiometer with an exterior knob, a controlling knob to adjust

5PPM to 60 PPM output.

Thanks again,

Nix




Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on January 16, 2021, 07:39:11 PM
You mean 5-60 milliamps, not PPM, right?

With the LM317LT, the spec says it works down to about 2.5ma so you could potentially go lower, perhaps even below that because thats a worst case (maximum ground pin current - a.k.a quiescent current - a.k.a operating current - what it consumes itself to operate). You might even be able to push it under 2ma but it'd take days to make any quantity of Colloidal Silver significantly greater than 20PPM for doing so.

With the LM317LT current limiter topology, that operating current flows through the load so the lower limit is what the minimum operating current for the part you have in your hand actually is (there's a "process spread" in manufacturing which can be as bad as +/-30% so given the quiescent current has to be the +30% or perhaps a bit more for safe area than a typical part you can see that you could potentially get well below this with a part leaning towards the lower end).  But again, why would you want such low currents?  Just because you can doesn't always mean its useful - just that you have some wiggle room on the low end which is never a bad thing.

Thanks for the kudos but its really not necessary.  We're all here to help/assist/guide each other and we all do.

Pray tell what would you be using 60ma for?  That'd be a helluva silver anode that would required for that current (wink).  You're not making bathtubs full, are you? (hahahaha).

Oh, and if you choose a potentiometer resistance that sets the top end to say 25-30ma, you're precision in setting a current doubles from that of 60ma because now moving as far as you move to increase or decrease the current by 1m for the 60ma pot, with the 30ma one you'd be moving 0.5ma so you get greater accuracy. Think about it.  It makes sense.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

That wouldn't be the link for the PeterXXL post you were talking about, would it?

I saved that one for obvious reasons a while ago.

Sometimes with the search facility, if you're looking for a multi-word match and you want it to be a b c, put it in quotes "a b c" and the search will only look for that string exactly.  That does help at times find exactly what you're looking for quickly and sometimes, at a minimum, helps to weed down the matches to something you can skip through quickly.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on January 16, 2021, 10:11:47 PM
You mean 5-60 milliamps, not PPM, right?

Yes, thank you, Gene, (post must have been visited by a 'screwup ferry' again).

Quote
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

That wouldn't be the link for the PeterXXL post you were talking about, would it?

Yes, that's the one.
-------------------------
 
 I checked today on Youtube and Mark Brusher's post, on how to make it, (colloidal silver),

yup, is still there:

#386 Ionic & Colloidal Silver, Definitive Guide To Making

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur-oP3bmbc 

Nix
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: ZeroLabs on February 06, 2021, 04:52:50 PM
You mean 5-60 milliamps, not PPM, right?

Yes, thank you, Gene, (post must have been visited by a 'screwup ferry' again).

Quote
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

That wouldn't be the link for the PeterXXL post you were talking about, would it?

Yes, that's the one.
-------------------------
 
 I checked today on Youtube and Mark Brusher's post, on how to make it, (colloidal silver),

yup, is still there:

#386 Ionic & Colloidal Silver, Definitive Guide To Making

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur-oP3bmbc 

Nix
Hey, Thanks for the video plug!  ;)

Is there still a question?

Also, I sent Kephra a private email last month but never got a reply. Hope he's not angry with me.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: kephra on February 06, 2021, 08:07:35 PM
Quote
Also, I sent Kephra a private email last month but never got a reply. Hope he's not angry with me.
You did?
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: ZeroLabs on February 07, 2021, 07:28:15 PM
I did. To the address we had been using. Maybe you don't use that address anymore? Or maybe I've been branded a spammer? IDK. I'll PM you here instead.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on February 09, 2021, 11:02:46 PM

yup, is still there:

#386 Ionic & Colloidal Silver, Definitive Guide To Making

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur-oP3bmbc 

Nix
Hey, Thanks for the video plug!  ;)

Is there still a question?

Also, I sent Kephra a private email last month but never got a reply. Hope he's not angry with me.


Mark, your deed is amazing, (your channel; videos on YouTube, rock), also, thanks goes

to Kephra, and much, much gratitude to folks like yourselves, and others,  who make

our life easier...

Thank you again, keep plugging away.

Nix


Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: smellfire on May 23, 2021, 04:20:39 AM
I've been wondering....

Why do we need to make a 50/50 reducer with Karo and Distilled Water or Karo and Vodka?

Why can't we just add drops of 100% Karo?
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: cfnisbet on May 23, 2021, 11:12:11 AM
I've been wondering....

Why do we need to make a 50/50 reducer with Karo and Distilled Water or Karo and Vodka?

Why can't we just add drops of 100% Karo?
You can. It's just easier to measure drops if they're more watery. I personally use maltodextrin dissolved in water, but the "traditional" reducer always recommended here is Karo (Golden Syrup in the UK or Europe).
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: nix2p on July 13, 2021, 12:09:17 AM
Interesting article, somewhere is mentioned:  "silver, glucose instead of galactose or mannose"!

Link to article
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150121084532.htm

Quote
To carry out the study, the team has analysed how different carbohydrates act on the surface of silver nanoparticles (Ag-NP) of around 50 nanometres, which have been introduced into cultures of liver cells and tumour cells from the nervous system of mice. The results reveal that, for example, the toxic effects of the Ag-NP are much greater if they are covered with glucose instead of galactose or mannose.


Ad on: Jul. 13 2021
Difference Between Glucose Galactose and Mannose
https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-glucose-galactose-and-mannose/

Metabolic effects of glucose, mannose, galactose, and fructose in man
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/479351/

Different effects of galactose and mannose on cell proliferation and intracellular soluble sugar levels in Vigna angularis suspension cultures
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/springer-journals/different-effects-of-galactose-and-mannose-on-cell-proliferation-and-RzEo78x4lO
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: gbd8977 on June 23, 2023, 01:53:19 PM
I made some 320 using this method only instead I swapped Karo with 2tsp of malto. Still has metallic taste after being diluted. Going to stick with the 40 drops of Karo/dw. I just wanted to share.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Pemf silver on June 23, 2023, 09:06:28 PM
KARO has always work perfectly for me , but I only make 20PPM .
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Gene on June 24, 2023, 09:39:07 PM
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=47.msg47233#msg47233

More reducer is OK, less is usually not (wink).  More gelatine is OK too.

Making higher PPM requires HEAT (140-150F) and adding the reducer and the gelatine if you're gelcapping at the BEGINNING of the run.

Processing cold (making 20PPM), the solubility limit of silver oxide in water (what you're making before it gets reduced) is only about 21-22PPM at room temp (NOTE: room temp is 75F and no lower) which is why you can't make greater than 20PPM cold.

Reducers reduce at "calendar" speed at room temp which is why you have to heat your 20PPM cold processed run if thats what you're doing to 140F-ish - to get the reducer to quickly reduce the IS you produced.

The high temp for higher PPM's guarantees the reducer reduces the produced silver oxide that dissolves in the water faster than its produced so you never coast over the wire. I might interject here that my observation is, though the above is true, there seems to be a 10-15 minute lag between production and reduction for higher PPM's owing to the perceived color change which I admit is a rather crude metric but its ballpark anyway (I've seen this both using Karo and Maltodextrin) but if your operating point isn't producing close to 40PPM IS over this quarter hour or so, you're good (wink). At 150F, the solubility limit of silver oxide in water is about 40PPM so not only does processing at the higher temp activate the reducer to reduce the produced IS quickly, it gives you some breathing room to guarantee you never coast over the wire.

If production of IS ever exceeds reduction for higher temp, higher PPM runs, to where you have over 40PPM of IS in solution, the excess WILL, just like for coasting over 21-22PPM with processing cold, precipitate out, NEVER reduce and eventually (which could be a long time given the tiny particle size) settle as a grey dust at the bottom of the container. Not good.

The above is just the current wisdom gleaned from this site. As things change or we learn more or better ways to do things I'll make sure Colin (cfnisbet, our admin) keeps the above post up to date.
Title: Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
Post by: Pemf silver on June 24, 2023, 10:47:31 PM
Thanks Gene!