Author Topic: High current Colloidal Silver, what am I making?? Safety and concerns.  (Read 1823 times)

KeyoSuiRono

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My question is, what am I actually producing, and is it safe.. because I've been using it for ages..

The internet is full of BS.. this community is golden (& silver) thank you.

Please excuse the potentially repetitive newbie questions.


To start I'll explain my setup.

Basically doing it the way you guys teach.
With the exception of the current..
And that's where my concerns arise.

Using sodium carbonate as electrolyte. (Homemade)
Cinnulin and aloe as reducers/stabilisers and capping - these two added after the ionic silver is made -then heated and stirred..
But could be done from the beginning I think, at least the cinnulin. (Correct?)

I have a homemade magnetic stirrer, it's gentle.
And I heat to about 35-40°c using an old reptile heating pad that I stripped out and wrapped the wires around the jar. Works well.

Anode, I have been using a piece of silver I was given, it's about 15mm wide and 100mm long.
It's a strange flat rectangle shape, like squished thick wire. I see that's not ideal. I've tried to round it as much as possible. It is 9999 Im told.
Copper cathode.
Spaced about 6cm apart.

Using good distilled water..

No ppm meter, haven't measured current so don't know ppm. (Can't figure out how to measure current yet.. I'll get there)



So my worries come in here..
 Generator.. using a laptop charger
19,5V  2.31A  45w

NO LIMITER, NOTHING, just straight up like that. 2.31A...



During the run (30 min) heated and stirring (just electrolyte) the DW stays perfectly clear.

After 15 min I remove and heat clean the anode, it gets quite blackened by then (not intensely, but enough to clean). Then back in for another 15 min.



Afterwards, removing the generator, adding the cinnulin and aloe, heating and stirring for a further hour or so. (Heat around 40°c max)

Goes beautifully amber, whiskey colour, perfectly clear.

No real taste, bit of cinnamon flavour comes through, very mild.
No turbidity..

So seems perfect..

But obviously I'm blasing the current far far above what you experts recommend.
 

So is this unhealthy? Dangerous? What am I actually getting as the final result?


It certainly still works as an medicine for personal purposes, topically and internally.



.. if NOT stirring and heating during the run, the silver anode pours little threads of particles down to pool around it. But with heat and stirring the water stays perfectly clear... I assume that's from the excessive current and no reducing effect..

I really want to understand this process more and also have a better understanding of what i have been producing already.

I do plan on putting together a generator like you suggest here, around 15V 5Ma with limiter. But electrical work is very new to me and it's a slow process to understand it all. I don't really trust myself with it yet.
I'm seeking help from some mates here.

Thanks for any help here!
K



KeyoSuiRono

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Also, I would say the final product is quite a bit darker than what most people post as 20ppm.

Offline Gene

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You need a current limiter for sure and a DVMM to measure current and voltage.

You need the voltage across your cell to be 10V (probably more though I can't tell you how much more) given your electrode spacing is much farther apart than the normal 1.5" (3.8cm) we use.

You need to know current so you can use Faraday's law of electrolysis to calculate the run time so you know what you made and Faraday's law ONLY works if you have a constant current flowing through the cell (current limiter).

You need to produce slowly enough that the silver oxide you're pulling into solution (what that greyish stuff on the anode is) actually dissolves.  Run too high a current and you make LOTS and LOTS of silver oxide (ionic silver) that starts to precipitate out and it will NEVER reduce because its not IN solution.

The solubility limit for silver oxide in water at room temp (75F) is about 22PPM.  At 150F its about 40PPM. If you EVER get to a concentration greater than the solubility limit at the temperature you're running, absolutely you're producing silver oxide that will never reduce and thats not good.

There is NO "meter" that measures the PPM of colloidal silver. That use a TDS meter wives tale is just that. Its BS. It won't measure colloidal silver content. The ONLY way you know PPM is to have a current limiter and run the Faraday's law equation given the desired PPM and quantity of distilled water you're using in the cell and the current you're running through the cell to compute the time to run the cell.  When that time is reached you have the PPM you wanted.

As far as how much current?  With an anode that size, 10-20 MILLIAMPS! Thats 0.01 - 0.02 amps.

Unless you're making 20PPM, you'd want to add the correct amount of reducer, plus a little extra for "insurance" and to speed up reduction a bit at the BEGINNING of the run.  With the need to keep the PPM below 20-40PPM depending on the temp you're running at, you need to reduce the ionic silver you're pulling into solution as quickly as you can so you can get the PPM up over that as colloidal silver. If not, the ionic silver above this level precipitates out of solution and will never reduce and now you're drinking a soup of ionic silver and colloidal silver and thats not good.

Those little whiskers we jokingly call "smoke". Thats a dead indicator you're running way too high a current.  Thats silver oxide that is NOT dissolving. Just because you're stirring and don't see it doesn't mean anything because the stirring simply distributes the silver oxide particles evenly so you can't see them (they're individually microscopic with no perceptible color) but they're there.

But then you have no clue how much current you're using and without knowing the voltage across the cell you don't know what you're making because there are requirements for cell voltage to be 10V minimum with a 1.5inch electrode spacing (higher with wider spacings) - its VERY important for proper manufacture of colloidal silver (silver oxide - the electrolysis phase).

You need to make a current limiter and run at the very low current I mentioned.  With stirring, if the surface area of your anode is about that of a 1oz silver bullion bar, with stirring, maybe 20-25milliamps (0.02-0.025 amps) MAXIMUM!

Looks can be quite deceiving.  Given you can't measure what you're making where the only way is with Faraday's law, who knows if the color is due to the silver oxide that actually DID dissolve in the water and got reduced where there's still a lot of undissolved microscopic particles that will remain silver oxide forever?

Ingesting silver oxide causes a condition called argyria.  The silver oxide is converted to silver chloride in the stomach which is still an ion. It gets into the blood, into the cells of your body because it is an ion (colloidal silver isn't - it can't get in), reacts with sulfur and/or selenium inside your cells and is converted to silver sulfide and/or silver selenide which are now NOT ions so they can't get back out and are stuck inside the cells forever.  Silver chloride, silver selenide and silver sulfide are ALL light sensitive. Silver chloride is the salt they use to light sensitize phototgraphic film. So... get enough inside the cells, get enough light exposure and you smurf yourself (seriously) AND its PERMANENT. OK, if you stop, given the body basically replaces itself once every 7 years, the blue will eventually go away but it'd be measured in years, not minutes, hours, days...

Ionic silver has little to no disease fighting ability.  Colloidal silver made from it is 25-30 times more potent weight/weight.

Also, another aspect with producing too quickly is that what does reduce creates particles of colloidal silver that are large compared to the range we want (10-15nm).  Larger than 15nm starts getting into the "brownish/reddish" color range where those particles are too big to be absorbed and hence, they're just going in one end of the "people" (wink) and coming out the other end with nothing good happening in between (wink).

As far as a current limiter, 2-20ma is a good range. More than likely you'll be operating below 20ma or at. Voltage doesn't hurt. A higher voltage across the cell is better. 10V at 1.5" electrode spacing is kind of a minimum.  Its below this that you run into issues.

The power supply for the current limiter needs to be maybe 5+V higher than the maximum voltage you observe across your cell when running so it remains operating properly.  It needs some voltage to operate too plus a little safe area above this (wiggle room) where the maximum voltage you can put across the cell is the power supply voltage minus this "headroom".   For lower current, a laptop charger (19.3v) works just fine. Its what I've been using for years. I don't stir though. I've read that stirring increases the path the electrons have to take from anode to cathode and will actually increase the voltage of the cell to where you may not be able to get it down to 10V. As I said this is fine and actually desirable but not if that voltage causes your limiter to stop functioning properly for being higher than the maximum, given your power supply voltage and limiter headroom, you can put across the cell and keep everything functioning properly.

I'm sure others will chime in too.

Build an LM317 limiter as has been discussed on here, even recently. Its all of 3 parts - the LM317LZ, a fixed resistor and a potentiometer.  Thats it! It can't be any simpler. It works, its cheap to build (LM317LZ's aren't expensive, nor fixed resistors no potentiometers) and plenty good enough for making Colloidal Silver.

KeyoSuiRono

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Appreciate the help. I've read a lot of your posts on the forums, they have been very informative.

Yeah I will work on the electronics .

So lm317lz to92
1000ohm trimmer potentiator? There are a lot of types of these..
And 50ohm 50w resistor?
Another 100ohm resistor for the pot too?
I read something about that on one of the threads..

Are there schematics on this site? Haven't found any.

Is this correct?

The only thing I'm sure about is the lm317lz..
The resistor and potentiometer I don't really know what to get, and if the other optional parts are helpful.

There is a lot of other components that can be added I see. It's confusing.


There are some kits that seem to be for this exact purpose
Eg
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002380616119.html?spm=a2g0n.productlist.0.0.58463320XBm6D1&browser_id=c5343deec25d4c2bbaa59bde8965ce8b&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=xqszgbqf2gucavm0179472f9b6a20f03c37e1a3c66&gclid=&_imgsrc_=ae01.alicdn.com%2Fkf%2FH09b50405783443baa56eb84f2d839933g.jpg_640x640Q90.jpg_.webp

Obviously more complicated..


The perfectionist in me is struggling,
The more I learn the more I need to learn!
It's great, but I also want to produce Colloidal Silver asap for some people here, including a baby, so I want to know I'm doing the best I can.

Anyways, cold run, 20ppm is totally doable, if i can just get this power issue sorted.

Would be so nice if we could just buy these limiter devices already setup... Enter entrepreneur..???



Offline nix2p

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From what I understand schematics not accepted.

This is how I've done mine, (with some help from this forum; thanks):

« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 04:17:47 AM by nix2p »
"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline Gene

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https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/215418/smartest-way-to-use-current-limit-using-lm317

Look at the top circuit. Thats the WHOLE thing - just change the pot to a 1KOhm one and the resistor to a 47Ohm or 49.9Ohm one.  The power supply negative output goes directly to the cell cathode.  It couldn't be simpler.

The little blue 3296W series trimmer potentiometers are 25 turns so at a maximum of 25ma out of the thing, one full turn would be required to increase or decrease the current by 1 milliamp giving you VERY fine control. They're also pretty inexpensive.

If you go with a panel mount potentiometer because you want to put the circuit in an enclosure and want to be able to "play" with a knob (wink), shoot for a 10 turn at least. I don't know if they make higher turn ones as panel mount.  They're going to cost you several dollars each for sure.

Even still, at 25ma output, with a 10 turn, one turn would increase or decrease the current by 2.5ma. Not nearly as good from a fine control perspective but still OK.

The series resistor should be 47Ohms if you're buying a 5% tolerance resistor or 49.9Ohms if you're buying a 1% tolerance one. Its not super critical. The resistor sets the maximum output current of the circuit so that if you bottom out the potentiometer resistance you don't get tons of current flowing through your cell.

The power rating of the resistor is not 50watts.

Power = I^2 * R so 0.025^2 * 50 = 31.25milliwatts (0.03125 watts).

ANY leaded resistor is good enough. The smallest they make is 1/8 watt (which is tiny) and thats 125milliwatt rated.  I'd suggest a 1/4 watt or 1/2 watt simply for size so its easier to work with the thing. 1/8 watt resistors can be rather delicate and they're easy to break.

Yeah, I've been thinking about building a little PCB to do this but with some added features that will make it very easy to use. Yeah, its still relatively simple but there's the time aspect, testing,...  For sure if I do this its not going to be a 39 cent board.  Probably more around $25-30 for two of them (you always need a spare) including shipping in the US.  I probably wouldn't do international.  We'll see. There really is a need. The volume is probably tiny too. How many could I sell? A dozen or two tops maybe?  Even at that price, no, I wouldn't really be making any money on them. It'd be more a favor to those who can't build them themselves or who choose not to.

KeyoSuiRono

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Amazing, perfect explanation. I'm ready to go. Thank you so much.

I found a local place that has the components and am ordering today.

Really appreciate the time and help.

For the power supply.
What would be the best range to run it.
24v 3a? (does wattage matter)
Or seeing that we are using so low a amperage is something like 500ma output enough?

I'm getting another adaptor, and they have a huge range of options. Want to get the most compact I can.

Excited to now mostly understand this part of it!

Offline Gene

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Glad to be of assistance.

Just remember.  The TO-92 LM317LZ part is the one you want.  It has a low end regulation limit around 1-2ma (datasheet says 2.5ma minimum but thats guaranteed - for sure it'll go lower than this though I can't tell you how much and it'll vary a little from part to part since its not a guaranteed/tested spec).

The TO-220 part (LM317T) isn't guaranteed to go under 10ma. You<might> get 5ma out of it but that might be pushing it and thats generally not a good enough range if you want to build you're own limiter (5-6-7ma minimum current).

10-12V across the cell (more if you're stirring but I can't tell you how much more because I don't own a heated stir plate) plus 3V minimum for the LM317 to operate plus some safe area (wiggle room) so 15V + maybe 5V+ on top of this?

I use a 19.3V old laptop charger.  They put out 3-5 amps (this one is 5 amps - 5000 milliamps) but the limiter doesn't draw any current thats not flowing through the load. Its a series device.  So if you're running at 10ma, thats what you need but obviously you can't buy anything that puts out only that low a current.  Just about anything will put out plenty of current.  You just need to make sure you get enough voltage into the thing.

The LM317LZ can run up to 32volts.  You don't need that. 24 to me would seem plenty but if you're stirring and/or running higher current (I run 10ma,  no stirring), 19.3V may not be enough.  If you're buying something, go for 24-28-30V. - whatever you can find inexpensively if even you don't have something lying around the house already.  It doesn't have to be pretty. Its just gotta work (wink).

Keep us posted. We always love to hear of success stories.

Offline Pemf silver

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I just put this one together, now I have to adjust and test ..

Thank you !

The Dr Bob Beck Constant Current Colloidal Silver Generator circuit works well just takes a little longer
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:16:27 PM by Pemf silver »

KeyoSuiRono

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Mister Gene..

Parts arrived, built the thing, and it works! Couldn't be happier! Can easily achieve 15v across electrodes even with the 19v laptop charger.


Still need to finish it up and will post pics, and hopefully I can help some others along the way.

Gene, thank you very much.

So I want to make 160ppm
Using cinnulin, (I'll do some aloe cap after the run too)

For this concentration
Is it still 1ml electrolyte and reducer per litre?
And what temp is good?

150°f for 40ppm and up I read..
Don't need to go higher?
150 for 40 to 160?


Found one of those maple leaf 9999 coins that I was given some years back, so I made an anode out of that, as I couldn't be sure of the purity of the other one I was using.

Really happy to have it coming along!!

Offline kephra

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Quote
Is it still 1ml electrolyte and reducer per litre?
Electrolyte is always the same per liter regardless of final ppm.
Reducing agent needs to match the total amount of silver to be reduced, so depends on ppm.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

KeyoSuiRono

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Could you elaborate? I've only seen it posted with regards to quantity of D.W so far.

1ml cinnulin per litre, I guess that's for 20ppm.

Aiming for 160ppm. But I'd like to understand it first.

Also confused as to heat required for higher ppm. Is 150° good for everything from 40-320ppm?

That's a very easy to achieve temp. Don't need a heating plate for that.
I'm getting around that with a modified heating pad from a terrarium.

Offline cfnisbet

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Could you elaborate? I've only seen it posted with regards to quantity of D.W so far.

1ml cinnulin per litre, I guess that's for 20ppm.

Aiming for 160ppm. But I'd like to understand it first.

Also confused as to heat required for higher ppm. Is 150° good for everything from 40-320ppm?

That's a very easy to achieve temp. Don't need a heating plate for that.
I'm getting around that with a modified heating pad from a terrarium.
1 ml cinnulin per litre per 20 ppm (suggested max 120 ppm, go any higher and gelatine is far better).
1 ml 1M sodium carbonate per litre of DW regardless of final ppm.
Yes, 150 degrees is OK.

KeyoSuiRono

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Perfect. Thank you.
Gene, cfnisbet and Kephra, you are legends.

I'll get on the production of a few variants in th next few days and post my findings.

I've also gathered just about all the info a newcomer needs to go from desire to final product, without any experience.

I will pass on this info freely and happily always.

I am a herbalist by trade, so I'm always exposed to people who could potentially benefit from this.

I think I'll make up a few more current limiters that I can give to clients who may be interested in learning how to use C.S for themselves.

Nothing like free medicine and having options beyond the local pharmacy.

KeyoSuiRono

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What do you reckon is the minimum temp for making 120ppm?
Gene I sae a post of yours somewhere, you spoke of 120° or 130..  as a viable range, where do you get that info? Have you had success with that?

I'll add 1ml electrolyte and 6ml cinnulin.
Aloe after the run (as I can't actually find info about using aloe before, but is seems like a pretty effective capping agent)
Im not going to be using Gelatine, even though it produces superior results.