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21
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by kephra on March 04, 2024, 08:50:19 PM »
My dried out 320ppm soaked paper towel reconstituted perfectly.
BTW, the commercially made CG tablets which Optimox used to sell contained:
    10mg gold
    microcrystalline cellulose (Micosolle)
    silicon based Micosolle
    maltodextrin
    stearic acid
    magnesium stearate
At the time these were sold, the cost was $1 per tablet.  I have no idea what Micosolle is.
22
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: 320ppm precipitation
« Last post by wgpeters on March 04, 2024, 05:55:04 PM »
I went to pour out of a jug of gelatine capped 320 ppm I made a couple years ago and it did not seem as dark. Then I noticed precipitate on the bottom of the jug. Of course I've slept since then, so I don't remember the specific process of that batch. I usually used maltodextrin, but it is possible that I may have experimented with glucose.

Any thoughts on the precipitate?
Does it restore when you shake it up?
23
Colloidal Silver Production / 320ppm precipitation
« Last post by FromTheDen on March 04, 2024, 05:34:35 PM »
I went to pour out of a jug of gelatine capped 320 ppm I made a couple years ago and it did not seem as dark. Then I noticed precipitate on the bottom of the jug. Of course I've slept since then, so I don't remember the specific process of that batch. I usually used maltodextrin, but it is possible that I may have experimented with glucose.

Any thoughts on the precipitate?
24
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by Heino_R on March 04, 2024, 10:06:13 AM »
........
I will repeat this experiment with the casein stabilized 320ppm.

Yes, perhaps it is possible that the particles are protected after drying and go back into solution.
But of course it is very time-consuming to evaporate 250ml of liquid to get 80mg Ag in dry Colloidal Silver.
But, the total dry weight are over 1g, as the entire sodium casinate and the reducing agent (glucose) are also contained in it.

If the sodium casinate had the same properties as the sodium protalbinate (keyword: isoelectric point), it would lose its solubility at low pH values and drag the nanoparticles with it, in order to then concentrate them by pouring off the supernatant, purify them and neutralize them again with sodium hydroxide and bring it back into solution.
This means it can be easy cleaned without a centrifuge and then dried in high concentration.

In addition to sodium protalbinate, I was able to achieve this years ago with egg white powder (from the bodybuilding shop). I used 250ml ready-made electrochemically produced colloidal gold 40 ppm, then mixed it with 15 mg of egg white powder and was able to concentrate it with acid precipitation, clean it, neutralize it.
I didn't dry it at the time, but it was 5ml of highly concentrated CG (~2000ppm) which, when diluted to 100ml (~100ppm), gave a beautiful ruby red color and only had an electrical conductivity of 100 µS/cm, so relatively pure and free of reduction residues.

But I have to say this 40 ppm electrolytically produced colloidal gold was reduced with citrate and tanin.
25
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by kephra on March 03, 2024, 04:15:05 PM »

I mixed equal parts of the 320ppm and vinegar, and there was no reaction or color change except for the dilution.  It seems stable.  The anode coating seemed less than when using gelatin, and I just fire cleaned it as usual.

Sodium caseinate is made by adding acid to milk to make it curdle.  Then the curds are dried, ground, and treated with sodium hydroxide to make it soluble.  Chemistry rule is that all sodium compounds are soluble in water.  This is basically casein glue, like Stradivarius used to build his violins with. 

Are you sure alginates are made from milk?  I looked alginate up, and see that it is made from brown seaweed.  Perhaps this is a mistranslation?

Well, now, I think that sodium caseinate is chemically different from sodium protalbinate, which can also be made from casein.
I didn't mean alginate or sodium alginate either, but sodium protalbinate.
Sodium protalbinate is the sodium salt of protalbic acid.
...
Duh!  I misread albinate as alginate:(

A looooooong time ago, I made 320ppm with gelatin and did an experiment to see if it could be dried and reconstituted.
I dipped a piece of paper towel in the solution, and left it dry.  When dried, the color did not change.  Then I put the dried piece of paper towel in water, and the water turned yellow indicating that the silver redissolved.  I will repeat this experiment with the casein stabilized 320ppm.


26
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by cfnisbet on March 03, 2024, 08:40:23 AM »
Topic set "sticky" - this is starting to be a very interesting topic, showing great usefulness for advanced users.
27
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by Heino_R on March 03, 2024, 08:17:13 AM »

I mixed equal parts of the 320ppm and vinegar, and there was no reaction or color change except for the dilution.  It seems stable.  The anode coating seemed less than when using gelatin, and I just fire cleaned it as usual.

Sodium caseinate is made by adding acid to milk to make it curdle.  Then the curds are dried, ground, and treated with sodium hydroxide to make it soluble.  Chemistry rule is that all sodium compounds are soluble in water.  This is basically casein glue, like Stradivarius used to build his violins with. 

Are you sure alginates are made from milk?  I looked alginate up, and see that it is made from brown seaweed.  Perhaps this is a mistranslation?

Well, now, I think that sodium caseinate is chemically different from sodium protalbinate, which can also be made from casein.
I didn't mean alginate or sodium alginate either, but sodium protalbinate.
Sodium protalbinate is the sodium salt of protalbic acid.
This can be produced by alkaline hydrolysis from cow's milk casein, but also from egg albumin.
This goes back to the German-Austrian chemist Carl Paal, who discovered it around 1900 as a protective colloid for various metals. In particular, for colloidal palladium and colloidal platinum.
He also recognized the possibility of using it to produce precious metal catalysts.

You can Google “protalbinate Paal” or “protalbic acid Paal”. Preferably without exclamation marks ""

For example, in this book by The Swedberg (Nobel Prize winner in Colloid Chemistry) there is the following about Paal's protective colloid (page 83):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/The_formation_of_colloids_%28IA_cu31924014777696%29.pdf

"Paal and his students have worked out some very efficient reduction methods (59). The alkaline salts of protalbic and lysalbic acid are used as protective colloids. In the case of gold and silver no other reducing agent is necessary. The preparation of the hydrosols of platinum, osmium, palladium, iridium, copper, tellurium and selenium requires, however, the addition of a special reducing agent such as hydrazine hydrate, sodium amalgam, etc. Most of Paal's hydrosols can be evaporated to dryness and dissolved again in the form of sols, the protective colloids present preventing the metal particles from getting too close together"



28
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Help with my LM317 limiter?
« Last post by Josie29 on March 03, 2024, 12:44:15 AM »
Thanks PemfSilver ... very helpful!
29
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by kephra on March 02, 2024, 09:11:03 PM »
Hello Kephra, that is for me very interesting . Sodium caseinate is a casein product which is probably also denaturalized with sodium hydroxide like the protective colloid of collargol, which was previously called sodium protalbinate.
I'm just wondering if there is a chemical relationship or if they are the same thing. Sodium protalbinate is produced by boiling casein in sodium hydroxide and then acid precipitation.
In the production of Collarol, it not only serves as a protective colloid, but also as a reducing agent.
Since it is a casein-based protein, the solubility of sodium caseinate is also likely to decrease at low pH.

Maybe you can test it by adding a little vinegar essence to see if the colloid will precipitate and then bring it back into solution with sodium hydroxide.
In my electrochemical experiments with sodium protalbinate there was the problem that the silver anode became coated with it.
For that reason I didn't pursue it any further.
I mixed equal parts of the 320ppm and vinegar, and there was no reaction or color change except for the dilution.  It seems stable.  The anode coating seemed less than when using gelatin, and I just fire cleaned it as usual.

Sodium caseinate is made by adding acid to milk to make it curdle.  Then the curds are dried, ground, and treated with sodium hydroxide to make it soluble.  Chemistry rule is that all sodium compounds are soluble in water.  This is basically casein glue, like Stradivarius used to build his violins with. 

Are you sure alginates are made from milk?  I looked alginate up, and see that it is made from brown seaweed.  Perhaps this is a mistranslation?
30
Colloidal Silver Production / Re: Gelatin substitute -- sodium caseinate
« Last post by Heino_R on March 02, 2024, 08:20:14 PM »
Hello Kephra, that is for me very interesting . Sodium caseinate is a casein product which is probably also denaturalized with sodium hydroxide like the protective colloid of collargol, which was previously called sodium protalbinate.
I'm just wondering if there is a chemical relationship or if they are the same thing. Sodium protalbinate is produced by boiling casein in sodium hydroxide and then acid precipitation.
In the production of Collarol, it not only serves as a protective colloid, but also as a reducing agent.
Since it is a casein-based protein, the solubility of sodium caseinate is also likely to decrease at low pH.

Maybe you can test it by adding a little vinegar essence to see if the colloid will precipitate and then bring it back into solution with sodium hydroxide.
In my electrochemical experiments with sodium protalbinate there was the problem that the silver anode became coated with it.
For that reason I didn't pursue it any further.

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