Author Topic: My experiences and a couple of questions  (Read 4912 times)

Offline SaltyCornflakes

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • Likes: 50
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2019, 09:29:05 PM »
Thank you Dean.

After some more time spent producing, the issue is still elusive but I have made some headway.

I thought a perfectly clean cathode wasn't essential, but it is. Also using too little sodium carbonate is as bad as using too much of it. With too little, the solution will not be alkaline enough and colloidal gold will come out purple. Easy to test by using no sodium carbonate at all, and what little alkalinity results of the electrolysis will 'suddenly' make the colloidal gold pop from clear to purple. Using too much of course means more salt than necessary, and we want to minimize salt.

However overdosing on salt and sodium carbonate just to test does *not* have to result in a murky product. It probably has some negative influence on tyndall, but the real problem lies in a number of other factors.

Shadsu

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2019, 05:24:05 AM »
Hi, can I ask you more about you modified method? I'm trying to do something near to your method but it doesn't work rightly.
It becomes only pinky, not red.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • Likes: 50
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2019, 02:42:43 AM »
I have not really modified anything. It's just a matter of due diligence.

Make sure your glassware is clean, your DW is pure, your electrodes are clean, your temperature is high enough and that you use the proper amount of sodium carbonate for pH. Kephra says convection current may be enough, but I find I get less turbidity if I stir well. I also don't run it hot enough to bubble, as that would result in more water loss. That may be a factor.

Hitting exact mA is not essential. Less mA just means longer run time. As long as your voltage is high enough, you're good.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 02:56:45 AM by SaltyCornflakes »

Offline Art

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1487
  • Likes: 54
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2019, 05:22:52 AM »
When I have a water loss due to steam loss through my beaker cover, I just add distilled water back to top it off. The silver content remains the same inside of the beaker.

Art

Shadsu

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2019, 11:28:56 AM »
This is what I want ask you.

Kepfra receipe doesn't speak about sodium carbonate for electrolysis method, but only for reduction method.
Does it work better with sodium carbonate?

An other question is about time and quantity of water. I red you use 500 ml, how much time do you electrolyze with this quantity and how much current do you use? 300 ma?


Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 8883
  • Likes: 286
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
    • My World As I See It
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2019, 02:04:33 PM »
This is what I want ask you.

Kepfra receipe doesn't speak about sodium carbonate for electrolysis method, but only for reduction method.
Does it work better with sodium carbonate?
No, never use sodium carbonate.   The electrolyte is the sodium chloride, which makes sodium hydroxide during electrolysis.  Sodium hydroxide is alkaline, so it raises the pH sufficiently to activate the reducing agent.
Quote
An other question is about time and quantity of water. I red you use 500 ml, how much time do you electrolyze with this quantity and how much current do you use? 300 ma?
Double the water, double the time.  Current requirement is the same based on electrode geometry.  I recommend 25 to 35 mm spacing.

I highly recommend making in 250 ml batches until you have mastered the process.  This wastes less time, gold, and distilled water.
[/quote]
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • Likes: 50
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2019, 05:15:25 PM »
Just sodium chloride and maltodextrin was never enough for me. The solution would stay clear, then pop into a purple color after a while because the pH was not high enough. So it affected the process and the particle size negatively. And in an early experiment of mine, color would not appear at all without sodium carbonate. How can this be?

Shadsu

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2019, 08:30:38 PM »
Just to understand us.

Never use sodium carbonate in electrolysis, it means it will produced something toxic to drink?
in the right quantity to be toxic ?

Shadsu

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2019, 10:56:35 PM »
Ok thanks.
If I understand well your philosophy is less substances and better is... If possible to have only gold, it would be better.

The picture I can't see it
Can I ask you why do you write with two accounts?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 11:01:41 PM by Shadsu »

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 8883
  • Likes: 286
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
    • My World As I See It
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2019, 12:14:02 PM »
Shadsu:
Can you see it now?
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Shadsu

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2019, 05:42:50 PM »
Now I can see the picture.
I don't know why I was not able to see it, I saw only a little question point.

And I'm disappointed... I se you have a really big quantity of gold. 100 grams?
I'm trying an other time, but the ampere are not right and this time is also less than 60 ma.
I'm becoming crazy to understand the reason.
I made a new test, only tap water and the right quantity of salt, because I was thinking dissolved sugars can maybe change the electrical conductivity. ( I'm trying to use the old batches to understand more about the  electrical conductivity)
This time I had 16 ma, which becomes 8 ma in 2 minutes or less..and this time more anode inside raises the current to 160 ma
I made an other test yesterday only with copper anodes it looks to be the same than with the little gold anode, only the salt in water changed the current.

It looks like if sometimes it's 60 ma, then 16, then 40 , 100 ... And what it's strange it's that not only the current changes time to time , but also in the same batch the current is absolutely not constant.
it's possible it decreases to 30 micro ampere.

I also thought the multimeter was broken even if new. But it's not possible see bubble on the electrodes, and when it's possible are really few.

I thought maybe the conductivity decreases because of the chloride and sodium which are used for gold chloride and sodium hydroxide, but this will happen in at least more time than 2 minutes.

I don't understand. Do you think it's possible I'm not able to reach 300 ma because of the quantity of gold of my anode ?
How much quantity I need at least? I bought this little quantity to make experiments and try to understand if it was something for me...and I decide for a wire with 0,3 mm because I thought when it's submerged there is more quantity of gold in contact with chloride ions....but everything I thought was wrong :(
I'm really disappointed...like often when I have too many aspectatives.

Shadsu

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 01:13:20 PM »
They are normal power supplies.
One is the printer power supply like your one. This is the 30 volt, which doesn't give 30 volt.
The other is the power supply of an ultrasonic nebulizer.
It's strange it doesn't work.
To understand better I ask to everyone who reads:

1- Am I right to think it's strange ? The power supply has to give minimum the current printed in the power supply, in my case 333ma-30 V and 1.2 A-24V
2- is it possible that my 0,3 mm wire is not large enough to transport 300 am current?
I'ntuitively it must be enough because the copper wire are normally more little, but who knows it really ?
3- do you confirm me that also with 100 mg gold anode I have to be able to have 300 ma?
4- is it possible something ( grape sugar) goes on the gold anode and cover it, so that the surface is not in contact with water? I saw yesterday it was dirty, black in some part. Maybe on the anode the temperature were very high and sugars caramellized on the anode ? Now I clean it
5- is it normal that with more salt I'm able to reach much bigger current?
6- more anode in water it means more current? I experiment that but I need to know what it's normal , I have the feeling nothing works like it has to do.
7- could it be that the problem are the temperature ? All my experiments I made it at room temperature, perhaps I need higher temperature ?

Thanks to Kephra and to everyone who reads.
I ask also stupid questions, but I feel really like if what it's normal for you doesn't work in my case, and I'm not anymore sure that what I think it's normal , it's really so.

Offline SaltyCornflakes

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • Likes: 50
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2019, 12:08:26 AM »
Today I used a bigger gold electrode with 34V, which gave me about 250mA. This resulted in a fairly light product with more tyndall and some gold plating on the copper electrode. I am thinking I submerged too much of the gold?

I remember there being some calculations but I can't find them now. Assuming my copper electrode is a 10mm x 1.5mm sheet which is submerged all the way about 100mm deep, how much gold surface area can I submerge?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 12:19:05 AM by SaltyCornflakes »

muhendisane

  • Guest
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2019, 04:58:28 PM »
Today I used a bigger gold electrode with 34V, which gave me about 250mA. This resulted in a fairly light product with more tyndall and some gold plating on the copper electrode. I am thinking I submerged too much of the gold?

I remember there being some calculations but I can't find them now. Assuming my copper electrode is a 10mm x 1.5mm sheet which is submerged all the way about 100mm deep, how much gold surface area can I submerge?

I will give you details about my setup and maybe you  can correct some issues.

Gold Sheet Anode: 30mmx1.3mm submerged
Copper Wire Cathode: 100mmx1.5mm submerged
90-95 degrees
36-39v
350mA
30 minutes
Non iodized rock salt
Tri-Sodium citrate dihydrate
Corn Syrup

Offline SaltyCornflakes

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • Likes: 50
Re: My experiences and a couple of questions
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2019, 07:35:31 PM »
Thanks for the numbers. I'm surprised you're getting a decent product using rock salt, which is a natural product consisting of many more minerals besides sodium chloride.