Author Topic: Requesting help.  (Read 48348 times)

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2020, 01:52:40 PM »
This colour change is due to the pH of the water, or (less likely) the minerals within it.

If your water is very acid, then it's going to damage the colloid. Likewise if there are any oxidisers in the water. Some types of tap or bottled water can be mixed without any issue; I saw a person try to turn Ionic Silver Oxide into silver chloride (a white cloud as the silver oxide reduces to silver chloride) under the effect of the chlorine in tap water, and he used bottled water. His demonstration failed, showing that all potable waters may be very different.

If you are unlucky enough to have very reactive tap water, then this can happen.

Barra

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Need Help Measuring and Optimizing mA and Volts Across Electrodes in adjustable Lab Power Supply Setup

Problem: I am having trouble measuring my volts/mA across my electrodes in my Lab power supply setup and was wondering if someone could help.

The goal: To run 5mA with a constant current (CC) from the PS and to adjust the voltage by adjusting the depth of the copper until I get between 10 to 15 volts. To be able to do this, I want to use my multimeter to check both voltage and mA and to adjust using my Lab PS dial and by adjusting my copper diode depth in relation to the silver.

My starting point: With a liter of water, and a 10 gauge silver anode, I am looking to achieve 5mA with 15 volts for 60 minutes to produce 20 PPM ionic silver. I start by maximizing the PS to 30 volts, insert my copper 1/2 inch, silver 1.5 inches for a 3x ratio, and keep the electrodes 1.5 inches apart. This was pulled from the forum, so please correct me if I am wrong.

I have:


Wired running multimeter in series:
+PS to MM V+ (to measure volts or A+ to measure mA), MM COM to silver + anode, copper diode- to PS-

QUESTIONS:
  • Wiring Setup: Is this the correct wiring (series) to be able to measure and adjust voltage or mA?
    • Measuring Voltage: When setting the PS to 30v, I get 30v on the MM without any drop - what am I doing wrong? How do I see the actual voltage across the electrodes rather than PS generated voltage?
    • Measuring mA: When I switch the MM from V+ to A+ to try measuring amperage, I am getting no amps registered - what am I doing wrong?
    • Lab PS Setting: What should I be setting my PS to volts or to mA as it offers either or with only one showing at a time? Should this be set to 5mA constant current then just adjust the copper to achieve 10 to 15 volts across the electrodes?

    BTW, is there any way to post an image as it would be much easier to show my lab diagram?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 08:20:36 PM by Barra »

Offline gkar

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2020, 10:42:46 AM »
Welcome to the forum, you're at the right place to learn. I'll see if I can help, from one rookie, to another:

If you haven't already, have a good read on the 'Articles' Forum, as well cfnisbet's excellent threads on Colloidal Silver production:
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4965.0

The multimeter (MM) is connected properly, according to your description.

Does your power supply (PS) have a CC indicator light? If so, is it coming on?
The process is governed by the amperage, not the voltage. I just set my PS to maximum voltage -30VDC is fine, & the amperage to about 4-5mA {the voltage will be what it is}. Power supplies aren't designed to operate accurately at such low amperages, that's why you use a multimeter, connected in series. As long as the CC light remains constantly on, & the VDC doesn't drop below 10VDC, then you will be OK.

I leave my PS display set to maximum voltage (about 24VDC), & ignore the PS amperage rating, as mine is usually out by up to 1-2A. eg. my PS will show a 4mA rating, whereas the MM will indicate 530-570mAs. So it's always best to refer to the MM.

It is recommended to initially switch on the PS, for about 3 seconds, to gauge the mA, adjust if necessary, to attain about 5mA. Quickly retest, then do the calculation {your calculation is good}, & switch on for the Colloidal Silver production run. If you have 0mAs, then something is going on, that shouldn't.

Have you added the electrolyte? I forgot once, & had zero mA, as distilled water has virtually no impurities, it will struggle to generate a current.

Are you sure the MM hasn't blown the mA fuse? Try setting the MM to the 10A, & see you have a reading there. It will work, just be less accurate -show 0.005mA, as opposed to 500mA, when the MM is set to the mA rating.

To add an image, click on the 'Attachments and other options' below the dialogue box. You can add images, photos, etc. on your local PC, from there.

See how you go. Seems your basics are sound. If any of the forum's experts note any inconsistencies, then please correct me.
3 years ago: the wrong side of 55 -now, heading towards good health!

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2021, 01:52:47 PM »
Hi I am new in this forum and i have been trying to read all post inside the forum but i stii have not found anything about pure ionic silver
I have read an australian company said that their product is pure ionic silver solution they quote
"These Silver Ions are made with a built-in delivery mechanism to shield them from chloride and other salts,enabling them to be delivered intact to where they are needed."

They also said the pure ionic silver should not have clear tyndall effect because ionic silver solution is not metal particles

It makes me confuse and give me a question mark, because im sorry our home made collodial silver or ionic silver does not have ability to shield it from chloride and other salt

So sorry for my bad english and knowledge about this silver solution

Thank you, really appreciate all

Offline kephra

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2021, 05:50:56 PM »
Quote
I have read an australian company said that their product is pure ionic silver solution they quote

Wrong.  Silver ions (positive) must have an accompanying negative ion, such as oxide, chloride.  Its physically impossible to make a solution containing only silver ions.

Quote
They also said the pure ionic silver should not have clear tyndall effect because ionic silver solution is not metal particles
Wrong again.  The tyndall effect is caused by light reflecting off large particles.  Ions are the size of a single atom, and cannot reflect light. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #155 on: August 04, 2021, 01:31:05 AM »
Thank you for you reply sir,
I think what they want to tell us is they created pure silver ion with stabilizing agent to cover up ag+ so it would not reacting  fast with chloride when entering our body and their product does not have tyndall effect since it does not contain large metal particles
from what i read on your post the positively charged silver ions are atracting OH- during electrolysis, so basically it wont react fas when entering our body because it has been stabilized ( its my assumption ) even without reducing agent or capping agent right?

Attachment below  is from chinese company claimed he made what they call pure nano silver


I also read you ask someone at your early post, If he wants to make ionic silver or colloidal silver, can you please explain to me a little bit what is the different of functionality and production method, a simple explanation

Thank you

Offline kephra

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #156 on: August 04, 2021, 03:12:09 AM »
Quote
I think what they want to tell us is they created pure silver ion with stabilizing agent to cover up ag+ so it would not reacting  fast with chloride when entering our body and their product does not have tyndall effect since it does not contain large metal particles
Sorry, but you cannot cap or stabilize ions.  You can only react them with something else (oxygen, chloride, nitrates, etc).
If you make it with only distilled water, you will get silver oxide.  Silver oxide does react with hydrochloric acid making silver chloride.

It is possible to make pure silver nanoparticles, but not for the amateur home producer. Laser ablation is one method, but not electrolysis.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #157 on: August 04, 2021, 07:59:30 AM »
OK sir, so the reducer or capping agent basically to stabilize colloidial silver nano particles right?
I want to use it for external use like disinfectant, sanitizer spray, and the colloidal silver has same or better efficacy compare with silver ion right?
Because if not mistaken there are some articles said colloidal silver has less antimicrobial or antiviral efficacy
But if i produce silver ion with very low current method probably its very unstable and loss his ability when it kept for certain period of time

Thanks again for your time

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #158 on: August 04, 2021, 10:12:36 AM »
Hallo again sir, I read your articles on another website about Ionic Vs. Metallic Colloidal Silver
and I finally get what you meant, Thank you very much
I have another question
You said the tyndal effect is not important as colloidal measurement, so my question is if i used 50mmx80mmx1,5 mm which is around
6,4 square inch on 1 side ( around 12,8 sq inch on both sides )

What is the maximum current allowed to get best colloidal silver without clear tyndall effect for 50ppm solution per litre?
Is it a good choice if i put a copper wire act as cathode on both silver bar side since its only facing 1 direction?
third and final  question for today is what happen if i only use 2mA compare with 15mA that you recommended? Will it only produce silver ion with a smaller particles compare with 15mA or it just a waste of time because of the longer period of time since we still need to add reducer or capping agent to stabilize it

Thanks

Offline Gene

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #159 on: August 04, 2021, 08:55:04 PM »
I'll let Kephra or someone else answer this but just an observation.

It takes time for the silver oxide the cell is pushing into solution off the anode to actually DISSOLVE. The faster you produce, the more the chance that the particles of silver oxide won't dissolve fast enough and instead clump together and now NOT go into solution which would mean they'd never reduce and you'd be left with a pea soup of some Colloidal Silver and some IS which you absolutely don't want.

With that big an anode, you most assuredly can go up to 20-25ma. A bullion bar is maybe 1-1.5 square inches on a side - something like that and people do go to 20-25ma here BUT with higher production speed, you need a higher temperature to overcome the speed of dissolution issue and to seriously speed up reduction time.

At 150F, the solubility limit of silver oxide in water is about 40PPM.

You need to produce slowly enough that you give the cell enough time for the silver oxide you're pulling into solution to both dissolve and then be reduced so the (not yet reduced to Colloidal Silver) ionic silver PPM NEVER goes over 40PPM or else you start precipitating out silver oxide which will then not reduce and you're back to that pea soup again.

Its all a balancing act and you have to find YOUR "sweet spot" and stick to it.

You can see the speed of dissolution issue by bumping the current up and up and shining a light through the cell. When you start seening "clouds" - arms of cloudiness coming off the anode, your current is too high because you're pushing silver oxide off the anode faster than it can dissolve.  Back it down 2-5 ma for safety at this point BELOW the current you no longer see the long cloudy "arms". Also, as your anode erodes or is used up, it gets smaller (wire - with a flat bar, thats less of an issue - it'll get thinner to the point its not usable anymore but still have a lot of surface area) and a smaller anode increases current density which pushes the same amount of silver oxide into the water from a smaller surface area so the density goes up and we're back potentially to that "too high a current" issue.

Start low (say 10-15ma with that electrode but at a higher temp like 150F) and see how good the stuff you make looks.  If you're satisfied its good (if not you have to drop the current and try again the opposite direction until you reach "good enough and call it even at that), with the next batch, bump it up 2-5ma and compare that to what you just made, inching up on "your" limit based on how you make it (size of anode, current, temperature,..).  Once you reach the "not good" stage or by your own metrics, "not good ENOUGH", I'd back down to the current you used for the last batch you'd call "good enough" and call it even, maybe even go 1-2ma below this for a little more safety and a slightly better product.

Also, if you're adding the gelatine up front which is suggested for PPM's over 20, the reduction speed will be SLOWER so you do have to take this into account too.

You obviously have a hotplate because to make higher than 20PPM its required. You need to get the solubility limit of the cell high enough that your dissolution time plus reduction time KEEPS the dissolved silver oxide BELOW the solubility limit at whatever temperature you're running your cell or else not good.

In other words, figure out what works best for you and yields the quality of product you're wanting and then maybe back the current down a milliamp or two for a bit of wiggle room.

Offline kephra

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #160 on: August 04, 2021, 09:32:47 PM »
Quote
What is the maximum current allowed to get best colloidal silver without clear tyndall effect for 50ppm solution per litre?
Maximum current depends on cell voltage, electrode spacing, temperature, stirring, surface area of anode.  It would have to be determined experimentally for your setup.  There is no magic formula.

Quote
Is it a good choice if i put a copper wire act as cathode on both silver bar side since its only facing 1 direction?
Never use two cathodes.  If you put one cathode facing one side of you anode and another facing the other side, the electric fields cancel out.  It the electric fields that move ions from one side to the other.  There is just no reason to use more than one cathode.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #161 on: August 05, 2021, 02:40:54 AM »
Thank you very much for Kephra and Gene for the explanation, i will try to make a batch first and see how it goes
I dont have a hot plate magnetic steering at the moment so i will go for 20 ppm for now

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #162 on: August 09, 2021, 05:17:49 PM »
Hi Mr Kephra
I have tried 2 batch of 20 ppm and another one is 40 ppm but the 40 ppm looks so dark

1. 750ml dw, 0,75 ml 1 mol electrolyte, 0,2 grams of matodexrin added after finish run for  15 minutes 15,2 mA 20,8 volts
2. 750ml dw, 0,75 ml 1 mol electrolyte, 0,4 grams of maltodextrin heated to 150F and started electrolysys for 30 minutes at 15,2 mA current and 15 volts

my 1st batch is ok i guess
my 2nd batch is very dark, i dont know if too much maltodextrin or to low voltage because i forgot to adjust the copper to get 20.8 volts and let it runs at 15 volts

The coppper wire which is around 12 gauge is around 20mm below water level, It is too little copper wire inside the soulutin probably the surface area is only 1/200 surface area of the cahtode 0,1 square inch compare with 12 square inch of anode, maybe the copper wire not deep enough but make it deeper will eventually lower the voltage like you have been telling us on some articles
I was thinking maybe the distance between the lowest silver plate is too far from the end of the  copper on cathode and it probably need more voltage, i calculated using phytagoras methode its around 3,46 inch wide between it, please help
Or maybe because i do not use a borrosillicate glass when i heated it up to 150 F and start the electrolysys
The picture i show you is a plastic container on the right because i broke my other glass container during heating

thanks

Offline kephra

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #163 on: August 09, 2021, 05:42:35 PM »
What did you measure your current with?
Your run times are incorrect.  20 ppm time should be 11 minutes and 10 seconds at 15.2 ma
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

indocomp

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Re: Requesting help.
« Reply #164 on: August 09, 2021, 06:24:51 PM »
im using multimeter to measure , connect it in series before positive line going into the anode
the run time im following waynepxe calculator v 2.01
thanks