Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Colloidal Silver Production => Topic started by: PeterXXL on June 17, 2015, 10:19:32 PM

Title: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 17, 2015, 10:19:32 PM

Hi!


About a week ago I made a 250 ml batch of 500 ppm colloidal silver that was reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatin, electrolysis using 15 mA constant current for 125 minutes, 0.2 ml 1 mol-sodium carbonate, constant stirring and heating around 90 degree Celsius.


After dilluting it down to 20 ppm, the result can be seen here.


http://oi62.tinypic.com/34nobw0.jpg (http://oi62.tinypic.com/34nobw0.jpg)


Now after a week, it's still very clear. And from now on I will use Maltose instead of Glucose as my preferred reducing agent.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 17, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
Yes that looks very good. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: fishing4fun on June 18, 2015, 01:14:01 AM
That is quite amazing peter could you tell me where you get the maltose?
The chaga experiment i am doing now looks just like your finished product when i first add it in.
Also what do you guys use as a stabilizer once your silver is done? can't seem to find any specifics on that yet.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: fishing4fun on June 18, 2015, 01:28:20 AM
I get a little mixed up at times, like when people use the cinnamon method i thought the cinnamon was like a stabilizer just like chaga extract.
But yea gelatine seems to be a winner for sure.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 03:51:09 AM
Actually Maltose has been my preferred reducer for a few months now.  If I make a big batch of 20 PPM IS and split it into 4 sub batches and then reduce them with different sugar type reducers here is my result:

The Karo, Fructose & Dextrose (Glucose) Reduced colloidal silver all look exactly the same (very nice, as long as I am using between 1.0 ml and 1.2 ml of 1 Molar electrolyte per Liter). The Maltose reduced is a slightly darker shade of yellow. To the naked eye they all look crystal clear but when a strong focused beam flashlight is pointed through the jars you can see a definite difference between the Maltose Reduced colloidal silver and the other 3. (Maltose having the least turbidity) The other 3 have the same amount of turbidity as each other. Not bad, but not as crystal clear as the Malt.

I have done this experiment numerous times with the same result as long as the electrolyte amount is close to the range I mentioned. If you use way more, or way less electrolyte then the results are WAY different (long story).

I now Gel-Cap all colloidal silver for drinking and when finished my 20 PPM Maltose Reduced & Gelatin capped colloidal silver looks very much like the pic Peter linked. Mine is possibly a hair lighter shade of yellow since I am using a touch more electrolyte.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 18, 2015, 04:14:45 AM
Rick, where do you get maltose from?
And what temperature do you run at for electrolysis, reduction, and this capping stuff?

Thanks.

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 18, 2015, 04:16:55 AM

Hi!


About a week ago I made a 250 ml batch of 500 ppm colloidal silver that was reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatin, electrolysis using 15 mA constant current for 125 minutes, 0.2 ml 1 mol-sodium carbonate, constant stirring and heating around 90 degree Celsius.


After dilluting it down to 20 ppm, the result can be seen here.


http://oi62.tinypic.com/34nobw0.jpg (http://oi62.tinypic.com/34nobw0.jpg)


Now after a week, it's still very clear. And from now on I will use Maltose instead of Glucose as my preferred reducing agent.


That looks really clear and bright, Nice!
I'm curious about maltose now.

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 07:05:10 AM
Rick, where do you get maltose from?
And what temperature do you run at for electrolysis, reduction, and this capping stuff?

Thanks.

-Sancho
 

I got it from the same place & at the same time that I got the 1/10 M HCl acid that I used for testing. It's called Carolina Biological Supply Co. (www.Carolina.com)
I ordered over the phone because for both those items it was necessary for the person taking my order to get "special permission" or whatever. I can kind of understand that for the HCl acid but have no clue why that was necessary for the Maltose. It's "Lab Grade" Maltose Monohydrate.  They recently sent me an 1100 page catalog that I better not look through because I'm sure there are hundreds of dollars worth of "stuff" in there that I would probably want.

My normal way of making 20 PPM colloidal silver for any sugar type reducer is to do the electrolysis @ just over 82*F (aprox 28* C) and then reduce it as soon as the electrolysis is finished. That way it's all reduced by the time it gets down to 75*F.

Before I started Gel-Capping at the end of the process I did not add any more heat at all. Doing it that way with Karo or Dextrose it always reduced fairly quickly for me (like 5 or 10 minutes). Maltose is different though. At those low temps it takes hours to fully reduce so I would put it in the warmest place in the house overnight & let it reduce slowly.

Now that I am Gel-Capping at the end it is necessary to get up close to boiling and then add the Gelatin. So I have started doing tests to see if I can just reduce it hot with Maltose and not loose any of the clarity. So far so good. Tried it with one batch so far. Split it in 2 and reduced 1/2 the normal overnight way with Maltose. The other half I added the Maltose & then got it up near boiling which reduced it quickly. Both seemed to be equal clarity but will have to do this a few times before I am sure.  It looks like I will be able to just reduce it hot with the Maltose, wait a little to make sure all reduced & then get it even hotter to add the gelatin.

BTW: I am not claiming that this is the "best" procedure. There are many other choices as far as temp that people have done well with. For my setup I seem to get the best results (color & clarity) from doing the electrolysis cool (82*F).

Also BTW: Using Maltose is a trade off. I mentioned that it does turn out slightly darker than Karo or Dextrose reduced colloidal silver (all else being equal) so that indicates slightly larger avg particle size (a bad thing). I am willing to make this tradeoff to get the extra clarity but in reality I am splitting hairs and it could be argued that the trade off isn't worth it.

The more experiments I did the more I realized just how good Karo is as as reducer. When I was playing around with higher amounts of electrolyte, the Karo Reduced colloidal silver held up (stability wise) much better than either pure Dextrose or pure Fructose Reduced colloidal silver. Quite surprising since Karo is about 50-50 Dextrose & Fructose (with salt & Vanilla added). I figured that either Dextrose or Fructose would have to be superior to Karo but if they are, my experiments sure didn't find that to be the case. (Pure Dextrose powder will reduce a little more quickly than Karo if speed is the objective though.)

The only time Karo does not perform well is if your pH is too low (not enough electrolyte). Then Karo or Dextrose or Fructose will produce a dark cloudy turbid mess. Have never tried that with Maltose but my guess is that it would also turn out bad.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 18, 2015, 10:02:09 AM
RickinWI: I also regard the Maltose reduced colloidal silver to be clearer than when using Glucose. But a big difference, is that it was possible to make a 500 ppm batch of colloidal silver with Maltose (and Gelatine) withut problem.

SanchoPanza: I bought the Maltose from eBay (a seller from Germany).
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 18, 2015, 12:20:01 PM
Thank you both.
Color and clarity are my main objectives.
Ease and "forgiveness" of production is a secondary concern.
Speed is least important to me.
It seems cinnamon is forgiving and easiest, karo  is a bit ph sensitive, and maltose the clearest?
I haven't started thinking about capping much, but It sure seems like a good idea, based on Rick's experiments.
Thanks again.
-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 18, 2015, 12:48:29 PM
Sancho:  Capping is the same as stabilizing. 
Some reagents are reducing agents, some are stabilizing agents, and some are both.
Some are stronger stabilizers than others.  Glucose is a weak stabilizer and strong reducing agent.  Maltodextrin is stronger than glucose as a stabilizer.  Gelatin is a very strong stabilizer, but weak reducing agent if at all.  Polyphenols as in cinnamon are both and somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 18, 2015, 01:24:43 PM
Excellent Kephra, thanks for the explanation.
I was looking for a forum glossary, to understand if some of these words, (reactions), had more than one meaning.
I now understand stabilizing and capping as the same thing.
I'm under the impression that stabilizing is important for long term storage, and capping helps to get the silver past the stomach acid.

So, the gelatin process mostly adds some extra "capping" then?
I assume that it's the different molecular structure of each sugar type that determines it's effects?
Fascinating!

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 18, 2015, 01:37:34 PM
Glossary: http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1294.0

See Ionic Stabilizer, Capping Agent, Steric Stabilizer.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 04:21:07 PM
RickinWI: I also regard the Maltose reduced colloidal silver to be clearer than when using Glucose. But a big difference, is that it was possible to make a 500 ppm batch of colloidal silver with Maltose (and Gelatine) withut problem.

So, if you use the exact same procedure but substitute pure Dextrose for Maltose it does not work (as well)?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 18, 2015, 04:25:30 PM
Maltose is a weaker reducing agent than glucose, and its a heavier molecule which should make it a better stabilizer. 
For substitution, glucose should be half the amount by weight.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 05:14:11 PM
Excellent Kephra, thanks for the explanation.
I was looking for a forum glossary, to understand if some of these words, (reactions), had more than one meaning.
I now understand stabilizing and capping as the same thing.
I'm under the impression that stabilizing is important for long term storage, and capping helps to get the silver past the stomach acid.

So, the gelatin process mostly adds some extra "capping" then?
I assume that it's the different molecular structure of each sugar type that determines it's effects?
Fascinating!

-Sancho

I should clarify: In my earlier post I mentioned "stability" of colloidal silver that was reduced with Karo, Dextrose etc at higher pH values. In that context I was referring to the stability of colloidal silver that was just reduced but not purposely capped with something else (Gelatin) afterward.

I guess all of the sugar reducers also have somewhat of a capping effect, however once the colloidal silver hits the stomach acid, any glucose cap is dissolved right off immediately exposing our carefully made silver particles to the ravages of the HCl acid in the stomach. Cinnamon Reduced colloidal silver holds up a little better & longer but utimately fails in a relatively short amount of time if exposed to the most severe conditions (pH 1.0 HCl acid and salt). You can do a similar experiment yourself very easily even if you don't have any HCl acid. Just take some colloidal silver and add some vinegar (pH about 4.0) and or salt. Even salt alone destroys glucose reduced colloidal silver. If salty vinegar can destroy colloidal silver so easily imagine what salty HCl acid in the stomach can do (pH about 2.0---3.5)

What puzzles me after doing these experiments is why I was getting good efficacy before using glucose reduced colloidal silver. Maybe it does not matter if the stomach breaks down the colloidal silver. Obviously all the silver is still there. It is just no longer yellow colloidal silver as we know it. My guess is that once the stomach acid breaks down the colloidal silver it converts it to IS which would then rapidly form silver chloride?  Maybe Kephra could shed some light on this for us.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 18, 2015, 05:20:59 PM
There was an experiment done with artificial stomach juice which showed that 75% of the silver nanoparticles survived the stomach intact in the amount of time it would have taken for the stomach to empty.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 05:25:38 PM
Maltose is a weaker reducing agent than glucose, and its a heavier molecule which should make it a better stabilizer. 
For substitution, glucose should be half the amount by weight.

I have been using about 150 mg/L (0.15gm/L) of Maltose for reducing 20 PPM colloidal silver.  Is that enough? What's the stoichiometric amount for Malt? (80 mg/L ?)  I think I remember that 40 mg/L is the minimum if using Dextrose.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 18, 2015, 07:36:20 PM
RickinWI: I also regard the Maltose reduced colloidal silver to be clearer than when using Glucose. But a big difference, is that it was possible to make a 500 ppm batch of colloidal silver with Maltose (and Gelatine) withut problem.

So, if you use the exact same procedure but substitute pure Dextrose for Maltose it does not work (as well)?


Confirmed, it does not work (trying to make a 500 ppm colloidal silver using Glucose/Dextrose and Gelatin, as the result was not clear enough). I have not yet tested Maltodextrin though. But using Cinnamon extract also works fine - making the result very clear. With Cinnamon extract, the result is clear enough but much darker and with the typical Cinnamon smell. And the latter is a reason for me to avoid it.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 18, 2015, 09:10:02 PM
Maltose is a weaker reducing agent than glucose, and its a heavier molecule which should make it a better stabilizer. 
For substitution, glucose should be half the amount by weight.

I have been using about 150 mg/L (0.15gm/L) of Maltose for reducing 20 PPM colloidal silver.  Is that enough? What's the stoichiometric amount for Malt? (80 mg/L ?)  I think I remember that 40 mg/L is the minimum if using Dextrose.


I calculated it like this...

I wanted to make a 250 ml of colloidal silver with a concentration of 500 ppm.

250 ml 500 ppm = 0.25 * 500 = 125 mg Silver.

Atom weight / molar mass of Silver = 107.87
Atom weight / molar mass of Maltose = 342.30

125 mg Silver / 107.87 weight of Silver = 1.1588 mol of Silver

Assuming that 1 molecule of Maltose will release 1 electron to reduce 1 Silver ion (looking at the molecule structure of Maltose, it look like it can release more than 1 electrons though)...

1.1588 mol of Silver * 342.30 atom weight of Maltose = 396.658 mg of Maltose is needed for the reduction
396.658 mg = 0.4 gram if we round it up (which should be done in order to be sure that all Silver ions are reduced).

And this was what I also added, beside 0.25 ml of 1-mol sodium carbonate solution and 0.2 gram Gelatin.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 10:26:42 PM
I think I got lost somewhere between the milli-moles & the 500 PPM.

So is the stoichiometric amount of Maltose & Dextrose I mentioned correct for 20 PPM?

Dextrose = 40 mg per Liter (0.04 gm) ?
Maltose = 80 mg per Liter (0.08 gm) ?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 18, 2015, 10:31:16 PM
Using Peter's example, you should now be able to calculate it.
Tell me your answer, and I will check it.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 18, 2015, 10:37:54 PM
Good answer except that its millimoles of silver (.125 / 107 ) and the ratio is off by two.

Reducing sugars have a carboxyl group at one end of the molecule that does the reduction.  The carboxyl group takes on an oxygen creating a carbon dioxide molecule which is released as gas. 

If you add the sugar to cold ionic silver and then warm it and let it set for a while you will see the CO2 bubbles form on the side of the bottle. 

So 1 molecule of maltose will reduce one molecule of silver oxide releasing two atoms of silver.

Then the stoichiometric amount is half what you calculated.   Better too much than too little though, and I always use more than the stoichiometric amount.


Ok, Yes, it's silver oxide that is reduced and not free silver ions Ag+ so only half that weight of maltose is needed then, rounded up. We have to remember that.

Is the reduction like this then...

Ag2O + C12H22O11 + O => 2 Ag + C11H22O10 + CO2

...or?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 18, 2015, 10:55:42 PM
I think I got lost somewhere between the milli-moles & the 500 PPM.

So is the stoichiometric amount of Maltose & Dextrose I mentioned correct for 20 PPM?

Dextrose = 40 mg per Liter (0.04 gm) ?
Maltose = 80 mg per Liter (0.08 gm) ?

Silver atom weight / molar weight = 107.87
Glucose / Dextrose atom weight / molar weight = 180.16
Maltose atom weight / molar weight = 342.30

So...

1 liter 20 ppm reduced with Glucose/Dextrose:
20 mg silver / atom weight of silver 107.87 = 0.1854 milli-mol
0.1854 milli-mol silver * 180.16 atom weight of glucose = 33.40 mg glucose/dextrose
And since 1 molecule of glucose will reduce 1 molecule of silver oxide, which contains 2 silver atoms, only half that weight of glucose/dextrose is needed...
33.40 / 2 = 16.7 mg, which is 0.0167 gram, we round up to 0.02 gram (or more).

1 liter 20 ppm reduced with Maltose:
20 mg silver / atom weight of silver 107.87 = 0.1854 milli-mol
0.1854 milli-mol silver * 342.30 atom weight of maltose = 63.46 mg maltose
And half of that...
63.46 / 2 = 31.73 mg = 0.03173 gram, which is rounded up to 0.04 gram (or more).
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 11:01:45 PM
Using Peter's example, you should now be able to calculate it.
Tell me your answer, and I will check it.

Oh shoot, a quiz & I didn't prepare  ???

Ok, my guess for 1 Liter of 20 PPM Maltose Reduced is 0.032 gm = 32 mg?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 18, 2015, 11:06:19 PM
Oh shoot, Peter wrote the right answer on the board before I was done scratching my head   ;)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 19, 2015, 12:06:57 AM

How to calculate how much of a reducing agent that is needed to reduce silver oxide (ionic silver) made from/during electrolysis.


Atom weights / molar weights
Silver = 107.87
Glucose / Dextrose = 180.16
Maltose = 342.30
Maltodextrin = 3 to 17 times that of Glucose/Dextrose =  540.48 to 3062.17
Note: Maltodextrin contains 3 to 17 glucose molecules, but normally something in the middle, but to be sure we use the highest weight.


PPM to milligram (mg)
First we must convert ppm (concentration in volume) to milligram (concentration in weight).
Weight in milligram = Amount of water in ml / 1000 * ppm.


So a 500 ml of 20 ppm colloidal silver solution contains 500 / 1000 * 20 = 10 mg silver.
Or a 2000 ml (2 liter) 40 ppm colloidal silver solution contains 2000 / 1000 * 40 = 80 mg.


Amount of reducing agent
Then we can calculate how much reducing agent that is needed in milligram, assuming that 1 molecule of reducing agent is able to reduce 1 molecule of silver oxide (which contains 2 silver atoms).


Amount of reducing agent in milligram = ( mg of silver / atom weight of silver )  * atom weight of reducing agent / 2


Examples
So 20 mg of silver requires so much glucose = ( 20 / 107.87 ) * 180.16 / 2 = 16.70 mg.
And 20 mg of silver requires so much maltose = ( 20 / 107.87 ) * 342.30 / 2 = 31.73 mg.
And 20 mg of silver requires so much maltodextrin ( 20 / 107.87 ) * 3062.17 / 2 = 283.88 mg.


Note: 1 mg = 0.001 gram; 10 mg = 0.01 gram; 100 mg = 0.1 gram, etc.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 19, 2015, 12:59:05 AM
Glossary: http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1294.0 (http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1294.0)

See Ionic Stabilizer, Capping Agent, Steric Stabilizer.


Thanks Kephra, Hadn't seen that. 
FYI, "glossary" is not recognized by this forum's search engine.

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 25, 2015, 08:58:39 PM

I wanted to make a 250 ml of colloidal silver with a concentration of 500 ppm.

***

And this was what I also added, beside 0.25 ml of 1-mol sodium carbonate solution and 0.2 gram Gelatin.

*** = I deleted most of post.

I was wondering if that amount of Gelatin is sufficient to cap 125 mg of silver?
Wouldn't you need at least 1.5 gm of gelatin?

I have been thinking about trying to make some high PPM colloidal silver (maybe 320 PPM) and I don't want to add more gelatin than I need, but also don't want to add too little. I seem to remember that 4 grams of gelatin is the minimum amount for a full Liter of 320 PPM colloidal silver.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 25, 2015, 10:13:42 PM

I wanted to make a 250 ml of colloidal silver with a concentration of 500 ppm.

***

And this was what I also added, beside 0.25 ml of 1-mol sodium carbonate solution and 0.2 gram Gelatin.

*** = I deleted most of post.

I was wondering if that amount of Gelatin is sufficient to cap 125 mg of silver?
Wouldn't you need at least 1.5 gm of gelatin?

I have been thinking about trying to make some high PPM colloidal silver (maybe 320 PPM) and I don't want to add more gelatin than I need, but also don't want to add too little. I seem to remember that 4 grams of gelatin is the minimum amount for a full Liter of 320 PPM colloidal silver.


Some weeks ago I made a 250 ml 400 ppm colloidal silver where I used 200 mg (0.2 gram) Gelatin. Diluted to 20 ppm, this colloidal silver is still very clear with the typical light yellow color, which must confirm that the solution is stable. I believe that gelatin (mixture of peptides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide) and proteins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein)) is able to stabilize even more silver nano particles. So I urge you fellow members to try to use less and less gelatin for each batch you make, so that we can see how low we can go.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 25, 2015, 10:26:50 PM
Knox gelatin has a molecular weight between 60000 and 200000, and probably varies batch to batch.
 
You need enough gelatin to cover the surface of the nanoparticle, so you don't need 1 molecule of gelatin for each silver atom. 

At 14nm particle size, only about 10% of the silver atoms are on the surface of the particles.

This should give you enough information to make an estimate of how much gelatin you need at minimum.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 25, 2015, 10:45:11 PM

Some weeks ago I made a 250 ml 400 ppm colloidal silver where I used 200 mg (0.2 gram) Gelatin. Diluted to 20 ppm, this colloidal silver is still very clear with the typical light yellow color, which must confirm that the solution is stable.

Yes, "stable" is one thing but I don't think that would confirm that all the silver particles are capped. I have some 20 PPM uncapped colloidal silver that has been sitting around for ages & hasn't changed color at all.

Perhaps if you took what you made & attacked it with salty HCl acid & the color did not change at all, then there would be some evidence to indicate that all the silver particles were capped.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 26, 2015, 03:46:10 AM
Knox gelatin has a molecular weight between 60000 and 200000, and probably varies batch to batch.
 
You need enough gelatin to cover the surface of the nanoparticle, so you don't need 1 molecule of gelatin for each silver atom. 

At 14nm particle size, only about 10% of the silver atoms are on the surface of the particles.

This should give you enough information to make an estimate of how much gelatin you need at minimum.
Hmmm, That computation is beyond my abilities. (I think that might be more up Peter's alley.)  I'm thinking I will go with 5 gm/L for 320 PPM. I'm guessing that should put me right about in the middle of the ballpark. If I have time I will do one batch with Dextrose as the reducer & the other with Maltose as the reducer to see if my results are similar to what Peter got. Will use 1 gm of Maltose/L and 0.5 gm of Dextrose/L.  (or a little more) I know both of those are about twice what's needed. Also going with 1.2 ml/L of 1M Na2CO3.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: PeterXXL on June 26, 2015, 11:01:28 AM
According to the company Sigma Aldrich (a manufacturer of chemicals for labs and medical research), the average molecule weight of their products varies between 20 000 and 100 000 with ~50 000 in average. Ref: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/docs/Sigma/Product_Information_Sheet/2/g9382pis.pdf (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/docs/Sigma/Product_Information_Sheet/2/g9382pis.pdf)

Gelatin molar weight = between 20 000 and 100 000
Silver molar weight = 107.87

100 mg Silver (1 liter 100 ppm; 250 ml 400 ppm, etc) / 107.87 x 20 000 (or 100 000) = 18540 mg to 92704 mg, or 18 to 93 gram. And if we assume that only 10% of the silver atoms are at the surface of each nano particle in average, then 1 / 10 of that, or 1.8 to 9.3 gram. I still believe that this is way too much of gelatin.

So, the problem is (1) we don't know the exact molecule weight of gelatin, (2) we don’t know how many percentages of the atoms in the nanoparticle that are located at the surface of the particle. But it must be better to add more than too little of stabilizing / capping agent.

But using too much gelatin will make eatable Jello instead of a drinkable solution.

BTW, I came across this one...

http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/FluidBook/fl7_3.php (http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/FluidBook/fl7_3.php)

...confirming that gelatin is at least better than dextrans and starch as capping agent in colloidal solutions for internal use.


I will buy some hydrochloric acid now and prepare some solutions to simulate gastric acid, so that I'm able to test the different produced colloidal silver I've made.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 26, 2015, 01:09:12 PM
Quote
100 mg Silver (1 liter 100 ppm; 250 ml 400 ppm, etc) / 107.87 x 20 000 (or 100 000) = 18540 mg to 92704 mg, or 18 to 93 gram. And if we assume that only 10% of the silver atoms are at the surface of each nano particle in average, then 1 / 10 of that, or 1.8 to 9.3 gram. I still believe that this is way too much of gelatin.

In this paper (http://www.nanoscalereslett.com/content/6/1/22), their best results was a weight to weight ratio of gelatin to gold of 31.  At that ratio for gold, the equivalent ratio for silver would be close to 60. So for 100 mg of silver you would need 6 grams of gelatin, which is within the range you just calculated.  So your estimate is not unreasonable, and the manufacturer does not disclose the molecular weight of the gelatin on their website.

To prevent 'jello', this would put a fairly low limit on the ppm which could be achieved.  I use 1 gram of Knox gelatin for 80 mg of silver in 250ml of water which is a lower ratio than above.  Much more gelatin than that and it starts to set up and become quite 'gloppy'.

Note that the physical size of a gold atom is only 5% bigger in diameter than a silver atom even though the gold weighs almost twice as much.

You can estimate the number of atoms in a nanoparticle and the number of surface atoms by knowing the diameter of a silver atom is 330 picometers and the packing ratio for spheres is 75%, and assuming the atoms are touching each other.  This is where I got the 10% number.



Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 26, 2015, 06:27:21 PM
Seems like this is yet another trade off situation. Too much gelatin & you make jello. Too little gelatin and only some of the silver particles will be capped. I think I made an executive decision: I will make 240 PPM so I can add 3.5 grams of gelatin/L. That should be right about at bare minimum.

Since any higher PPM colloidal silver I make would be for sending to friends or relatives who have never tried colloidal silver before I want to keep the gelatin down to an unobtrusive level. It already looks like a strange thing for someone to want to drink. They could be even more apprehensive if it is the consistency of a malt. I think the first batch of 20 PPM Gel-Capped colloidal silver I made when I started Gel-capping everything for drinking was with 3 grams/L. That wasn't too bad. My wife just mentioned that it "feels smoother". Now I use 0.4 gm/L for 20 PPM Gel-Cap which is probably almost twice what I need but it's almost undetectable.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 26, 2015, 07:08:47 PM

In this paper (http://www.nanoscalereslett.com/content/6/1/22), their best results was a weight to weight ratio of gelatin to gold of 31.  At that ratio for gold, the equivalent ratio for silver would be close to 60. So for 100 mg of silver you would need 6 grams of gelatin, which is within the range you just calculated.  So your estimate is not unreasonable, and the manufacturer does not disclose the molecular weight of the gelatin on their website.


I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.

I can take 30 ml my 20 PPM colloidal silver that is Gel-capped with 0.4 gm/L and add 10 ml of straight 1/10 Molar HCl acid that is said to have a pH of 1.0 and even add in 0.5 grams of salt for good measure.  I make a control in another wine glass. To that colloidal silver I add 10 ml DW. Leave it overnight & in the morning they both look identical when checked in many different lighting conditions. If left to sit for a few days it does eventually go clear.

I guess I should really continue on downward with my gelatin amount for 20 PPM to see at what point it begins to fail the salty acid test. Next time I make 20 PPM colloidal silver I will use 0.25 gm gelatin to see if that holds up as well. If it does then I will continue on downward on subsequent batches. If not then I will go up to 0.30 and then 0.35gm/L.

Will keep you posted but will probably take a while before I complete this experiment. However, I will do this experiment before I go ahead & make some 240 PPM colloidal silver. No sense in making that until I know the bare minimum amount needed to protect the silver from salty acid.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 26, 2015, 07:23:13 PM
Quote from: RickinWI
I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.
What you can't say though is that the particles are the same size.  When making colloidal gold with sodium citrate as the capping agent, the particle size depends on the amount of sodium citrate present.  Less citrate makes larger particles. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 26, 2015, 08:06:08 PM
Quote from: RickinWI
I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.
What you can't say though is that the particles are the same size.  When making colloidal gold with sodium citrate as the capping agent, the particle size depends on the amount of sodium citrate present.  Less citrate makes larger particles.

I have  some questions.
I thought from studying here, that darker yellow means either higher ppm, or larger sized particles.
Isn't particle size determined, at least somewhat, by the color tone?

Also, does additional capping further change the particle size after it's already been reduced?

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 26, 2015, 08:49:17 PM

Quote
I have  some questions.
I thought from studying here, that darker yellow means either higher ppm, or larger sized particles.
Isn't particle size determined, at least somewhat, by the color tone?

Also, does additional capping further change the particle size after it's already been reduced?

-Sancho
According to scattering theory, the attenuation (darkening) of light is a 6th power function of diameter, while absorbance wavelength is a first power function.  That means that a 1% increase in diameter will make a 6% change in the attenuation while having no noticeable change in perceived color.  A 5% increase in particle size would make it 28% darker.

Capped does not mean stabilized, that would depend on what a particle is stabilized with.  The idea is to cap the particles with an agent that stops their growth over time.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 26, 2015, 10:32:41 PM


Capped does not mean stabilized, that would depend on what a particle is stabilized with.  The idea is to cap the particles with an agent that stops their growth over time.

I'm a little confused Kephra.
You stated that Rick couldn't be sure of what size his capped particles were, but they were already stabilized by the time he capped them.
Wouldn't his color change, if the particles grow bigger/smaller after capping?

Thanks,

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 26, 2015, 10:46:49 PM
Quote
I'm a little confused Kephra.
You stated that Rick couldn't be sure of what size his capped particles were, but they were already stabilized by the time he capped them.
Wouldn't his color change, if the particles grow bigger/smaller after capping?
If there is not enough capping agent, the particles can grow larger, and the first sign of that is a slightly darker color.  So there is a minimum amount of capping agent required to stabilize the particle size.  Thats what I was referring to.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 27, 2015, 04:30:58 AM
There are really 2 different functions a gelatin cap can perform:

1. When I cap my 20 PPM Karo or Maltose Reduced colloidal silver I am not doing it to improve the stability (ability to stay the exact same color for long periods in storage). I am doing it only because I want to protect it from the stomach acid. Regular 20 PPM Karo or Maltose Reduced colloidal silver has plenty of stability all on it's own without needing a cap (as long as the amount of electrolyte used is correct).

2. Those who make higher PPM colloidal silver (like 320 or higher) need to cap the particles as they are made to prevent the particles from continuing to grow in size since it is so crowded in there with silver when compared to 20 PPM. The forces that normally keep the particles apart in 20 PPM colloidal silver are not strong enough to keep the particles apart & suspended in solution when they are overcrowded. Thus the need for capping to get the stability. Once capped the cap prevents the silver particles from touching each other & growing in size.  So colloidal silver made this way automatically accomplishes function #1 above.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 27, 2015, 05:35:52 AM
Thanks for clarifying Rick.
I agree that capping should provide better efficacy past the stomach.
If I have this straight, your colloidal silver is already stablized at 20ppm and so, capping induces no further change in the particle size.
When making higher ppm's, the capping is done during reduction, and so particle size is affected more?

Is that what Kephra is referring to?

Otherwise I'm still confused as to why capping an already stabilized particle would make the particle bigger.
NBD, I'm confused on a daily basis.  ;)

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: RickinWI on June 27, 2015, 06:43:46 AM
Yes, my 20 PPM colloidal silver is plenty stable all on it's own with no cap due to "zeta potential" which keeps those silver particles apart. All have the same elec charge so they repel each other. That holds them in suspension in the colloid. That works well for 20 PPM but once you get up to higher PPM it just gets too crowded in there for the the zeta potential repulsion to work.
The colloidal silver you made today: same story......... well at least the Cinn Reduced. (Don't know what the deal is with agave??)  You could put your Cinn Reduced on the shelf for months & it will most likely look exactly the same. Same if you had made Karo reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver. = Stable.
BTW: Cinn Reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver is also capped automatically. They use Cinn Extract in making higher PPM colloidal silver because it not only reduces it but also caps it.  The Cinn Reduced you made today will hold up better against salty acid than uncapped Karo reduced or Maltose reduced colloidal silver.  Might hold up fairly well against salty Vinegar. BUT, nowhere near as well as if you re-cap it with gelatin.

Capping probably increases the size of the entire capped particle because the cap on the outside is like a coating. How thick, I don't know but once it is digested off you have the same size silver particle you started with before you capped it.

When making higher PPM colloidal silver the reduction & capping both happen during the electrolysis. IE: you add everything: electrolyte, reducer, capping agent & then start the electrolysis. As the IS is made, it is reduced. As it is reduced the cap is put on the particle. If you are making higher PPM colloidal silver using Cinn Ext. then you just add that along with the electrolyte & then do the electrolysis because Cinn Ext dose both the reducing & the capping all at once.

But remember, you should really learn to walk before you run. Make AT LEAST 5 or 10 batches of 20 PPM Karo reduced colloidal silver.  Then make a few batches of 20 PPM Cinn Reduced colloidal silver. After that you can have fun experimenting if you want to. At least you will know what "normal" looks like.  When doing experiments I find it useful to make a big batch of IS, then split it into 4 or 5 sub-batches & reduce them all slightly differently.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 27, 2015, 12:45:26 PM
...
I agree that capping should provide better efficacy past the stomach.
If I have this straight, your colloidal silver is already stablized at 20ppm and so, capping induces no further change in the particle size.
When making higher ppm's, the capping is done during reduction, and so particle size is affected more?

Is that what Kephra is referring to?

Otherwise I'm still confused as to why capping an already stabilized particle would make the particle bigger.
NBD, I'm confused on a daily basis.  ;)

-Sancho
Sancho, its not that capping a stabilized particle makes it bigger.  Its that insufficient capping allows it to grow bigger.  At 20 ppm, no stabilizer is necessary.  As the ppm increases then stabilizer is necessary. 

Think about making a high ppm colloidal product.  To do that you have to have the reducing agent in the water at the start so that the amount of ionic silver does not exceed 20 ppm because it would start to precipitate as silver oxide if it did. 

Then, the nanoparticles start to build right away and all is well until the solution approaches 20 ppm metallic silver.  Once that happens, the electrostatic repulsion starts to fail and the particles would start to weld together and grow to unwanted size.  To prevent that, the stabilizer (capping) agent must also be in the water.

For most stabilizers, there has to be at least one molecule of stabilizer for each silver atom on the surface of the nanoparticles.  As the electrolysis proceeds, and the stabilizer is used up, then new nanoparticles will be unstabilized, and grow out of control resulting in a mix of big particles and small stabilized particles.  This produces the turbidity of the product.

There are two kinds of stabilizers, ionic and steric.  Ionic stabilizers work by increasing the electrostatic repulsion.  Steric stabilizers work by physically keeping the particles apart by means of their size.  Ionic stabilizers are chemical compounds like sodium citrate or sodium dodecyl sulfate.  Steric stabilizers are large molecules that do not ionize like starch or gelatin.  Each one has its limit of stabilizing power and exceeding that limit produces larger than wanted particle sizes.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 27, 2015, 03:33:07 PM
Yes, my 20 PPM colloidal silver is plenty stable all on it's own with no cap due to "zeta potential" which keeps those silver particles apart. All have the same elec charge so they repel each other. That holds them in suspension in the colloid. That works well for 20 PPM but once you get up to higher PPM it just gets too crowded in there for the the zeta potential repulsion to work.
The colloidal silver you made today: same story......... well at least the Cinn Reduced. (Don't know what the deal is with agave??)  You could put your Cinn Reduced on the shelf for months & it will most likely look exactly the same. Same if you had made Karo reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver. = Stable.
BTW: Cinn Reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver is also capped automatically. They use Cinn Extract in making higher PPM colloidal silver because it not only reduces it but also caps it.  The Cinn Reduced you made today will hold up better against salty acid than uncapped Karo reduced or Maltose reduced colloidal silver.  Might hold up fairly well against salty Vinegar. BUT, nowhere near as well as if you re-cap it with gelatin.

I will add some salt and vinegar to both test batches and see what happens.


Quote
Capping probably increases the size of the entire capped particle because the cap on the outside is like a coating. How thick, I don't know but once it is digested off you have the same size silver particle you started with before you capped it.

Got it.

Quote
When making higher PPM colloidal silver the reduction & capping both happen during the electrolysis. IE: you add everything: electrolyte, reducer, capping agent & then start the electrolysis. As the IS is made, it is reduced. As it is reduced the cap is put on the particle. If you are making higher PPM colloidal silver using Cinn Ext. then you just add that along with the electrolyte & then do the electrolysis because Cinn Ext dose both the reducing & the capping all at once.

OK, I will pay closer attention to when we are talking about 20ppm, vs something higher.

Quote
But remember, you should really learn to walk before you run. Make AT LEAST 5 or 10 batches of 20 PPM Karo reduced colloidal silver.  Then make a few batches of 20 PPM Cinn Reduced colloidal silver. After that you can have fun experimenting if you want to. At least you will know what "normal" looks like.  When doing experiments I find it useful to make a big batch of IS, then split it into 4 or 5 sub-batches & reduce them all slightly differently.

Yes, I do experiments the same way, with "sub-batches".
(Great minds, eh?)
BTW, I came out running, and never looked back.   ;)

-Sancho

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 27, 2015, 03:51:16 PM

Sancho, its not that capping a stabilized particle makes it bigger.  Its that insufficient capping allows it to grow bigger.  At 20 ppm, no stabilizer is necessary.  As the ppm increases then stabilizer is necessary. 

That makes sense now, worded that way.
I was assuming that after the reduction process, the particles could no longer agglomerate, and that made it "stabilized".

Quote
Think about making a high ppm colloidal product.  To do that you have to have the reducing agent in the water at the start so that the amount of ionic silver does not exceed 20 ppm because it would start to precipitate as silver oxide if it did. 

I understand that part, with higher ppm.

Quote
Then, the nanoparticles start to build right away and all is well until the solution approaches 20 ppm metallic silver.  Once that happens, the electrostatic repulsion starts to fail and the particles would start to weld together and grow to unwanted size.  To prevent that, the stabilizer (capping) agent must also be in the water.

Is that the reason 20ppm appears to be a magical number here? The repulsion starts to fail above 20ppm?

Quote
For most stabilizers, there has to be at least one molecule of stabilizer for each silver atom on the surface of the nanoparticles.  As the electrolysis proceeds, and the stabilizer is used up, then new nanoparticles will be unstabilized, and grow out of control resulting in a mix of big particles and small stabilized particles.  This produces the turbidity of the product.

Got it.
Leftover, unstabilized particles can continue to grow, but mostly only if it's above 20ppm.
At 20ppm, the electrostatic charge is sufficient to prevent further agglomeration, stabilized or not.


Quote
There are two kinds of stabilizers, ionic and steric.  Ionic stabilizers work by increasing the electrostatic repulsion.  Steric stabilizers work by physically keeping the particles apart by means of their size.  Ionic stabilizers are chemical compounds like sodium citrate or sodium dodecyl sulfate.  Steric stabilizers are large molecules that do not ionize like starch or gelatin.  Each one has its limit of stabilizing power and exceeding that limit produces larger than wanted particle sizes.


Just when I thought I was beginning to get a grasp...  :(


-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 27, 2015, 03:57:28 PM
Quote
Is that the reason 20ppm appears to be a magical number here? The repulsion starts to fail above 20ppm?
Yes, 20 ppm is a good safe number for normal room temperature for solubility of ionic silver.
Its also a good safe number for electrostatic stability although I think that can be pushed a little to maybe 30 ppm.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: SanchoPanza on June 27, 2015, 04:09:34 PM
Excellent Sir!
Thank you!

-Sancho
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: Josie29 on June 27, 2015, 10:36:49 PM
Still wading through all of this information.


So Karo syrup used at the process end is a reducing agent, and not considered a 'cap.'   Because at 20 ppm there is much less particle density (than 320 ppm), there is no need for a 'cap.'  A cap, when needed, would be in addition to whatever reducing agent is used.


Is maltose a reducing agent AND a cap?


Gelatin is used as a cap ... after reducing w/ the reducing agent.


Question to Kephra ... when you make a 320 ppm batch, is it stored that way until it is needed - at which time it is diluted to 20 ppm?  [I see that the Quick Start instructions for large ppm batches indicates "Warning: Must be diluted to 20 ppm after ..."   This is because the 20 ppm is the largest concentration to be consumed at one time??]


Comments appreciated ...

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: Josie29 on June 27, 2015, 10:38:18 PM
Duh!


Just read the topic 'reduced w/ Maltose and capped w/ Gelatin' ... Ignore one of my statements / questions!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
Post by: kephra on June 27, 2015, 10:51:45 PM
Still wading through all of this information.


So Karo syrup used at the process end is a reducing agent, and not considered a 'cap.'   Because at 20 ppm there is much less particle density (than 320 ppm), there is no need for a 'cap.'  A cap, when needed, would be in addition to whatever reducing agent is used.
Anything that binds to the nanoparticle is a cap.  Not necessarily a strong cap, but a cap nonetheless.
Silver is hydrophobic, so almost anything else will bind preferentially.
Quote

Is maltose a reducing agent AND a cap?
Monosaccharides are both.

Quote
Gelatin is used as a cap ... after reducing w/ the reducing agent.


Question to Kephra ... when you make a 320 ppm batch, is it stored that way until it is needed - at which time it is diluted to 20 ppm?  [I see that the Quick Start instructions for large ppm batches indicates "Warning: Must be diluted to 20 ppm after ..."   This is because the 20 ppm is the largest concentration to be consumed at one time??]
Yes, store it that way.  The advantage to high ppm is that it saves distilled water and storage space.
Yes, you should dilute it as the water also dilutes the stomach digestive fluids.