Author Topic: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine  (Read 14331 times)

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2015, 10:26:50 PM »
Knox gelatin has a molecular weight between 60000 and 200000, and probably varies batch to batch.
 
You need enough gelatin to cover the surface of the nanoparticle, so you don't need 1 molecule of gelatin for each silver atom. 

At 14nm particle size, only about 10% of the silver atoms are on the surface of the particles.

This should give you enough information to make an estimate of how much gelatin you need at minimum.
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2015, 10:45:11 PM »

Some weeks ago I made a 250 ml 400 ppm colloidal silver where I used 200 mg (0.2 gram) Gelatin. Diluted to 20 ppm, this colloidal silver is still very clear with the typical light yellow color, which must confirm that the solution is stable.

Yes, "stable" is one thing but I don't think that would confirm that all the silver particles are capped. I have some 20 PPM uncapped colloidal silver that has been sitting around for ages & hasn't changed color at all.

Perhaps if you took what you made & attacked it with salty HCl acid & the color did not change at all, then there would be some evidence to indicate that all the silver particles were capped.
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2015, 03:46:10 AM »
Knox gelatin has a molecular weight between 60000 and 200000, and probably varies batch to batch.
 
You need enough gelatin to cover the surface of the nanoparticle, so you don't need 1 molecule of gelatin for each silver atom. 

At 14nm particle size, only about 10% of the silver atoms are on the surface of the particles.

This should give you enough information to make an estimate of how much gelatin you need at minimum.
Hmmm, That computation is beyond my abilities. (I think that might be more up Peter's alley.)  I'm thinking I will go with 5 gm/L for 320 PPM. I'm guessing that should put me right about in the middle of the ballpark. If I have time I will do one batch with Dextrose as the reducer & the other with Maltose as the reducer to see if my results are similar to what Peter got. Will use 1 gm of Maltose/L and 0.5 gm of Dextrose/L.  (or a little more) I know both of those are about twice what's needed. Also going with 1.2 ml/L of 1M Na2CO3.
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Offline PeterXXL

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2015, 11:01:28 AM »
According to the company Sigma Aldrich (a manufacturer of chemicals for labs and medical research), the average molecule weight of their products varies between 20 000 and 100 000 with ~50 000 in average. Ref: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/docs/Sigma/Product_Information_Sheet/2/g9382pis.pdf

Gelatin molar weight = between 20 000 and 100 000
Silver molar weight = 107.87

100 mg Silver (1 liter 100 ppm; 250 ml 400 ppm, etc) / 107.87 x 20 000 (or 100 000) = 18540 mg to 92704 mg, or 18 to 93 gram. And if we assume that only 10% of the silver atoms are at the surface of each nano particle in average, then 1 / 10 of that, or 1.8 to 9.3 gram. I still believe that this is way too much of gelatin.

So, the problem is (1) we don't know the exact molecule weight of gelatin, (2) we don’t know how many percentages of the atoms in the nanoparticle that are located at the surface of the particle. But it must be better to add more than too little of stabilizing / capping agent.

But using too much gelatin will make eatable Jello instead of a drinkable solution.

BTW, I came across this one...

http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/FluidBook/fl7_3.php

...confirming that gelatin is at least better than dextrans and starch as capping agent in colloidal solutions for internal use.


I will buy some hydrochloric acid now and prepare some solutions to simulate gastric acid, so that I'm able to test the different produced colloidal silver I've made.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:46:14 AM by PeterXXL »

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2015, 01:09:12 PM »
Quote
100 mg Silver (1 liter 100 ppm; 250 ml 400 ppm, etc) / 107.87 x 20 000 (or 100 000) = 18540 mg to 92704 mg, or 18 to 93 gram. And if we assume that only 10% of the silver atoms are at the surface of each nano particle in average, then 1 / 10 of that, or 1.8 to 9.3 gram. I still believe that this is way too much of gelatin.

In this paper, their best results was a weight to weight ratio of gelatin to gold of 31.  At that ratio for gold, the equivalent ratio for silver would be close to 60. So for 100 mg of silver you would need 6 grams of gelatin, which is within the range you just calculated.  So your estimate is not unreasonable, and the manufacturer does not disclose the molecular weight of the gelatin on their website.

To prevent 'jello', this would put a fairly low limit on the ppm which could be achieved.  I use 1 gram of Knox gelatin for 80 mg of silver in 250ml of water which is a lower ratio than above.  Much more gelatin than that and it starts to set up and become quite 'gloppy'.

Note that the physical size of a gold atom is only 5% bigger in diameter than a silver atom even though the gold weighs almost twice as much.

You can estimate the number of atoms in a nanoparticle and the number of surface atoms by knowing the diameter of a silver atom is 330 picometers and the packing ratio for spheres is 75%, and assuming the atoms are touching each other.  This is where I got the 10% number.



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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2015, 06:27:21 PM »
Seems like this is yet another trade off situation. Too much gelatin & you make jello. Too little gelatin and only some of the silver particles will be capped. I think I made an executive decision: I will make 240 PPM so I can add 3.5 grams of gelatin/L. That should be right about at bare minimum.

Since any higher PPM colloidal silver I make would be for sending to friends or relatives who have never tried colloidal silver before I want to keep the gelatin down to an unobtrusive level. It already looks like a strange thing for someone to want to drink. They could be even more apprehensive if it is the consistency of a malt. I think the first batch of 20 PPM Gel-Capped colloidal silver I made when I started Gel-capping everything for drinking was with 3 grams/L. That wasn't too bad. My wife just mentioned that it "feels smoother". Now I use 0.4 gm/L for 20 PPM Gel-Cap which is probably almost twice what I need but it's almost undetectable.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:58:25 PM by RickinWI »
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 07:08:47 PM »

In this paper, their best results was a weight to weight ratio of gelatin to gold of 31.  At that ratio for gold, the equivalent ratio for silver would be close to 60. So for 100 mg of silver you would need 6 grams of gelatin, which is within the range you just calculated.  So your estimate is not unreasonable, and the manufacturer does not disclose the molecular weight of the gelatin on their website.


I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.

I can take 30 ml my 20 PPM colloidal silver that is Gel-capped with 0.4 gm/L and add 10 ml of straight 1/10 Molar HCl acid that is said to have a pH of 1.0 and even add in 0.5 grams of salt for good measure.  I make a control in another wine glass. To that colloidal silver I add 10 ml DW. Leave it overnight & in the morning they both look identical when checked in many different lighting conditions. If left to sit for a few days it does eventually go clear.

I guess I should really continue on downward with my gelatin amount for 20 PPM to see at what point it begins to fail the salty acid test. Next time I make 20 PPM colloidal silver I will use 0.25 gm gelatin to see if that holds up as well. If it does then I will continue on downward on subsequent batches. If not then I will go up to 0.30 and then 0.35gm/L.

Will keep you posted but will probably take a while before I complete this experiment. However, I will do this experiment before I go ahead & make some 240 PPM colloidal silver. No sense in making that until I know the bare minimum amount needed to protect the silver from salty acid.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:05:55 PM by RickinWI »
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Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 07:23:13 PM »
Quote from: RickinWI
I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.
What you can't say though is that the particles are the same size.  When making colloidal gold with sodium citrate as the capping agent, the particle size depends on the amount of sodium citrate present.  Less citrate makes larger particles. 
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 08:06:08 PM »
Quote from: RickinWI
I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.
What you can't say though is that the particles are the same size.  When making colloidal gold with sodium citrate as the capping agent, the particle size depends on the amount of sodium citrate present.  Less citrate makes larger particles.

I have  some questions.
I thought from studying here, that darker yellow means either higher ppm, or larger sized particles.
Isn't particle size determined, at least somewhat, by the color tone?

Also, does additional capping further change the particle size after it's already been reduced?

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 08:49:17 PM »

Quote
I have  some questions.
I thought from studying here, that darker yellow means either higher ppm, or larger sized particles.
Isn't particle size determined, at least somewhat, by the color tone?

Also, does additional capping further change the particle size after it's already been reduced?

-Sancho
According to scattering theory, the attenuation (darkening) of light is a 6th power function of diameter, while absorbance wavelength is a first power function.  That means that a 1% increase in diameter will make a 6% change in the attenuation while having no noticeable change in perceived color.  A 5% increase in particle size would make it 28% darker.

Capped does not mean stabilized, that would depend on what a particle is stabilized with.  The idea is to cap the particles with an agent that stops their growth over time.
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SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 10:32:41 PM »


Capped does not mean stabilized, that would depend on what a particle is stabilized with.  The idea is to cap the particles with an agent that stops their growth over time.

I'm a little confused Kephra.
You stated that Rick couldn't be sure of what size his capped particles were, but they were already stabilized by the time he capped them.
Wouldn't his color change, if the particles grow bigger/smaller after capping?

Thanks,

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 10:46:49 PM »
Quote
I'm a little confused Kephra.
You stated that Rick couldn't be sure of what size his capped particles were, but they were already stabilized by the time he capped them.
Wouldn't his color change, if the particles grow bigger/smaller after capping?
If there is not enough capping agent, the particles can grow larger, and the first sign of that is a slightly darker color.  So there is a minimum amount of capping agent required to stabilize the particle size.  Thats what I was referring to.

There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2015, 04:30:58 AM »
There are really 2 different functions a gelatin cap can perform:

1. When I cap my 20 PPM Karo or Maltose Reduced colloidal silver I am not doing it to improve the stability (ability to stay the exact same color for long periods in storage). I am doing it only because I want to protect it from the stomach acid. Regular 20 PPM Karo or Maltose Reduced colloidal silver has plenty of stability all on it's own without needing a cap (as long as the amount of electrolyte used is correct).

2. Those who make higher PPM colloidal silver (like 320 or higher) need to cap the particles as they are made to prevent the particles from continuing to grow in size since it is so crowded in there with silver when compared to 20 PPM. The forces that normally keep the particles apart in 20 PPM colloidal silver are not strong enough to keep the particles apart & suspended in solution when they are overcrowded. Thus the need for capping to get the stability. Once capped the cap prevents the silver particles from touching each other & growing in size.  So colloidal silver made this way automatically accomplishes function #1 above.
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SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2015, 05:35:52 AM »
Thanks for clarifying Rick.
I agree that capping should provide better efficacy past the stomach.
If I have this straight, your colloidal silver is already stablized at 20ppm and so, capping induces no further change in the particle size.
When making higher ppm's, the capping is done during reduction, and so particle size is affected more?

Is that what Kephra is referring to?

Otherwise I'm still confused as to why capping an already stabilized particle would make the particle bigger.
NBD, I'm confused on a daily basis.  ;)

-Sancho

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2015, 06:43:46 AM »
Yes, my 20 PPM colloidal silver is plenty stable all on it's own with no cap due to "zeta potential" which keeps those silver particles apart. All have the same elec charge so they repel each other. That holds them in suspension in the colloid. That works well for 20 PPM but once you get up to higher PPM it just gets too crowded in there for the the zeta potential repulsion to work.
The colloidal silver you made today: same story......... well at least the Cinn Reduced. (Don't know what the deal is with agave??)  You could put your Cinn Reduced on the shelf for months & it will most likely look exactly the same. Same if you had made Karo reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver. = Stable.
BTW: Cinn Reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver is also capped automatically. They use Cinn Extract in making higher PPM colloidal silver because it not only reduces it but also caps it.  The Cinn Reduced you made today will hold up better against salty acid than uncapped Karo reduced or Maltose reduced colloidal silver.  Might hold up fairly well against salty Vinegar. BUT, nowhere near as well as if you re-cap it with gelatin.

Capping probably increases the size of the entire capped particle because the cap on the outside is like a coating. How thick, I don't know but once it is digested off you have the same size silver particle you started with before you capped it.

When making higher PPM colloidal silver the reduction & capping both happen during the electrolysis. IE: you add everything: electrolyte, reducer, capping agent & then start the electrolysis. As the IS is made, it is reduced. As it is reduced the cap is put on the particle. If you are making higher PPM colloidal silver using Cinn Ext. then you just add that along with the electrolyte & then do the electrolysis because Cinn Ext dose both the reducing & the capping all at once.

But remember, you should really learn to walk before you run. Make AT LEAST 5 or 10 batches of 20 PPM Karo reduced colloidal silver.  Then make a few batches of 20 PPM Cinn Reduced colloidal silver. After that you can have fun experimenting if you want to. At least you will know what "normal" looks like.  When doing experiments I find it useful to make a big batch of IS, then split it into 4 or 5 sub-batches & reduce them all slightly differently.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.