Heating method: no electrloyte/reducing agent + Salt test

[Neofizz]

Question for you: When you made the batch of maltodex reduced colloidal silver that held up to salt were you using the FULL amount of electrolyte that everyone normally uses?

Yes, I did use the full recommended amount (or slightly over) of sodium carbonate to make that batch of 20 PPM colloidal silver. It was about half way through the second day that I noticed the colour of the solution get getting lighter and by the end of the day had gone clear or grey. I didn't take notes so right now I'm not sure how much maltodextrin I used. Most likely an excess. Only a pinch of salt was used in this test with about 4 oz. of the colloidal silver so I'm now suspecting there wasn't enough salt to give a rapid response. Doing the same thing with glucose reduced was rapid though.

I'm hooked on the 320 PPM gel capped for consumption now and only use the maltodextrin reduced as a nasal spray or for inhaling and still have a batch of it that I made last year. So I haven't made this for a long time now. Thanks to your help back last year, I never use heat now accept when making 320 PPM. Not using heat makes for minimal or nonexistent turbidity.

[RickinWI]

Thanks to your help back last year, I never use heat now accept when making 320 PPM. Not using heat makes for minimal or nonexistent turbidity.

That's what I have always noticed. Glad to hear you confirm that.  That result does seem counter-intuitive though. One would think that having the temp higher during electrolysis would actually improve things since the solubility of the silver oxide would be greater. I suspect that there may be a number of different kinds of turbidity, caused by different things and at different times.

One kind is that formed while making the IS during electrolysis. (talking 20 PPM here.  That's all I make.) Another kind is the increase in turb levels that might happen during reduction. Having the IS near room temp when you add the reducer increases the amount of time for reduction. A long slow reduction seems to add less turb to the Colloidal Silver. (YMMV)   

I use Lab Grade Maltose as my reducer which is a VERY slow reducer especially @ room temp.  I'm talking hours, rather than minutes.  Overnight for full reduction.  How long does maltodextrin take?   On my back burner is to give maltodextrrin a try. Using Maltose near room temp for a long slow reduction seems to add close to zero turb on top of whatever was already there in the IS.

To make my IS I usually warm the DW up into the 80*F (27C) range at the start.  I have not seen any extra turb from doing that.

The turbidity I am talking about can only be seen when scrutinizing my IS & Colloidal Silver with a strong focused beam flashlight in low ambient lighting conditions. Whatever amount of turb I have, which varies from batch to batch, comes from my IS. Like Kephra says, that small amount of turb is probably completely irrelevant in the greater scheme of things (but it still bugs me).

[emanwols]

RickinWI
Maltodextrin is a thing of beauty. Once you have used it for producing Colloidal Silver with only the initial heating up to between 27*C and 32*C you will not use anything else. The reduction at the end of the run is complete with no further colour changes.
Just make sure to buy good maltodextrin. I use supplies from a company called MYPROTEIN which is a company that sells stuff for bodybuilders and gym fanatics. I live in UK, but i think a good starting point for you would be bodybuilding suppliers.

[Neofizz]

I picked up the Now brand of maltodextrin at the health food store while getting the Ancient Minerals brand of magnesium flakes.

I don't use heat in production of the 20 PPM as long as my home is around 25C or higher. Last winter I would microwave the water just a little ahead of time but this winter I'm going to try no heat at all and see what happens.

Of all the sugar based reducers I've tried so far, the maltodextrin left me with turbidity levels that were hard to detect. I'm not so sure how long the reduction takes because I've been adding it at the start of production. I'm expecting it to be slower than glucose and faster than maltose.

After that last paragraph I decided to give it a go and see how long the reduction will take. I started with 250 ml of 20 PPM Ionic Silver Oxide made with no electrolyte, added 1/4 ml electrolyte, then added almost 1/4 teaspoon of maltodextrin and waited. It took almost a half hour for the colour to start developing and a bit over an hour to get to full colour. The ambient temperature here is about 28C but I took it to a colder room (25C) for it to develop.

[Neofizz]

At this point I have to backpedal because I tried the the salt test on this 20 PPM cup that I just made. This time instead of putting just a pinch of salt into it, I put almost a 1/4 teaspoon of my salt in (sea salt). Well, as soon as I started to mix it to dissolve the salt the colour started to change. It got darker and darker and in less than a minute it was a grey solution. 

So the amount of salt added makes a big difference in this experiment. I would expect that the salt concentration in my stomach with the HCl is even more concentrated.

Very sorry for accidentally misleading anyone on this. It seems that I have become a lazy chemist in my old age and because I didn't do more experimentation with this at the beginning I came to the wrong conclusions. Apologizes to any and all that were listening to me. (sad panda face)

[RickinWI]

RickinWI
Maltodextrin is a thing of beauty. Once you have used it for producing colloidal silver with only the initial heating up to between 27*C and 32*C you will not use anything else. The reduction at the end of the run is complete with no further colour changes.
Just make sure to buy good maltodextrin. I use supplies from a company called MYPROTEIN which is a company that sells stuff for bodybuilders and gym fanatics. I live in UK, but i think a good starting point for you would be bodybuilding suppliers.

I do have some maltodextrin on hand. It's the NOW Brand called "Carbogain" that Kephra uses. I will give it a try next batch by splitting my big batch of IS in half & reducing half with maltodextrin & the other half with my Maltose. Should make for an interesting experiment.

[RickinWI]

 I'm expecting it to be slower than glucose and faster than maltose.

After that last paragraph I decided to give it a go and see how long the reduction will take. I started with 250 ml of 20 PPM Ionic Silver Oxide made with no electrolyte, added 1/4 ml electrolyte, then added almost 1/4 teaspoon of maltodextrin and waited. It took almost a half hour for the colour to start developing and a bit over an hour to get to full colour.

I'm surprised the maltodextrin works so quickly. Glucose (Dextrose) is a single molecule & it reduces VERY fast. Maltose is two Glucose molecules hooked together in a short chain. Maltodextrin is a chain of an unknown & varying number of Glucose molecules.  Usually between 3 and 17 glucose molecules in that chain.

One glucose molecule can donate one electron for the reduction from one end. A Maltose chain of 2 glucose molecules can only donate one electron from one end of the chain.  A maltodextrin chain of XX glucose molecules can only donate one electron no matter if it is a chain of 3 or a chain of 15 glucose molecules.

The above is why I have had the maltodextrin experiment on the back burner for a while. I know exactly how much glucose or maltose I need for reducing 20 PPM Colloidal Silver.
(Twice as much Maltose as the minimum amount of Glucose).  I will be guessing at the amount of maltodextrin to use. I will probably start with 5X the amount of Maltose I would use & see how it works.

[RickinWI]

The Maltose I like for reducing is 2 Glucose units hooked together in a chain.  It occurred to me a long time ago that since I like Maltose better than Glucose (dextrose) for reducing then maybe I would like something with THREE glucose units in a chain even better. Searched around & found that it would be called Maltotriose.
Eureka !! Now where do I get some? Found it.  Excellent.  Only problem is it costs $290 for 5 grams of it at Sigma-Aldrich 
OR I could go for the BULK 25 gram container for $755     such a deal.

Guess I will stick to the idea of trying maltodextrin. After all there will be some maltotriose in the maltodextrin.  My 2 Lb container of Carbogain (maltodextrin) was so cheap I don't even remember what it cost. 

[Neofizz]

Guess I will stick to the idea of trying maltodextrin. After all there will be some maltotriose in the maltodextrin.  My 2 Lb container of Carbogain (maltodextrin) was so cheap I don't even remember what it cost.

My memory tells me I paid about $15 for the 2 lb container you speak of. And that's up here in Canada. I expect it's about half that in the USA as almost everything is that way between our two countries.

[Dean]

Got to say I'm agreeing with the whole page on this.

I had a couple of hiccups to start with and almost decided to not use it all but got a huge bag of the stuff and
now make my 40ppm with it all the time.

Definitely more consistent (bordering on perfect i'd day) results from not taking heat above 35 degrees.

The stuff is sooooooooo consistent it's getting embarrassing.

I'm just fascinated by it. I have to keep holding up the jars, taking them outside, holding them up the light,
taking them back in, polishing the jars so there's no finger prints on it taking photos of them....Wait a minute.....that's OCD isn't it! 

Anyway, It was Wayne's insistence that using malt meant that it could be accurately weighed each time and never needed mixing
or the opportunity to absorb bacteria and such like as the DW / Glucose could do. I now just reserve Karo for my 320ppm.

I love this place!