Author Topic: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?  (Read 8900 times)

Offline kephra

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2014, 01:01:39 PM »
Only way to know for sure if the lighter colored batches are that way because they contain fewer PPM due to plate out on cathode OR if they are lighter because they are not fully reduced is to try the simple experiment I suggested earlier. Only takes a few minutes.  I like to use 2 identical wine glasses. Fill them each to the same level and put a tiny drop of Karo in one of them. Wait a day and you should be able to tell.
Thats definitely a good test to do.  However, there are other factors which make one batch lighter or darker than another.  Uniformity of particle size (monodispersity) makes a big difference, and contaminants also make a difference.

I have found that the difference between vigorous stirring and less stirring makes a difference.  Without stirring, the solutions is not mixed well (homogenous) leading to small particles of silver oxide precipitate.  These particles can be small enough that they don't significantly impact the turbidity, but they don't exhibit silver's plasmon resonance and so only appear dark.
This is also where the size of the anode vs current makes a difference, as a larger anode spreads the silver oxide over a larger area and volume of water reducing the bad effect while a lower current gives more time for the silver oxide to diffuse into the water.

Making colloidal silver is a lot more complex than it first appears.  But if the 'rules of thumb'1 are followed, it comes out pretty well.


1) In medieval times, men were allow to beat their wives with a strap as long as it wasn't wider then their thumb.  Hence the rule of thumb.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Bizill

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2014, 06:27:57 AM »
Okay, so for the heck of it this morning before work I took my beautiful colloidal silver and added ONE drop of Karo to it and stirred a few seconds with a glass rod stir stick.  Nothing at all happened that I could detect so I put it away and didn't expect anything of it.  I had noticed that this batch, heat-reduced only, tasted metallic where as my other batches had no metallic taste at all.  Anyway, when I got home I opened up the dark cupboard I keep it in and the entire batch turned dark brown.

What did I do?  Did the one drop of Karo reduce the nanoparticles into much larger particles???   I had been taking like 100ml doses of the colloidal silver before I added the drop of Karo this morn but I tossed the batch after I took this picture.


Offline kephra

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2014, 11:45:32 AM »
Looks more like 320 ppm than 20, but it couldn't be if it were only light yellow before.  It would have been good to take one tablespoon of this and dilute it into one cup of water to see what color it actually was.
There is the unknown and the unknowable.  It's a wise man who knows the difference.

Bizill

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2014, 03:28:55 PM »
I dumped it the minute I got home and saw the color change had taken place.  I didn't want anyone to ask any questions I couldn't answer and I didn't want anyone to mess wit it.

Yes, it was a beautiful yellow/gold color to begin with and tasted metallic.  Because I didn't keep track, I believe this is probably the same batch pictured earlier with the mushroom cloud looking turbidity to it.  There was probably what, like 300ml in the bottle when I added the drop of Karo.  The drop was probably more like 2 because it was not diluted with distilled water and that stuff is thick.  So let's call it 2 drops.  Do you think they caused the silver to precipitate that much?

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2014, 10:41:45 PM »
Well, that proves that it was not fully reduced before. Also the fact that it tasted metalic shows that it was not fully reduced before. Fully reduced colloidal silver will NEVER taste metalic.  IS tastes metalic.

Too bad you did that to the whole bottle....... but you can always make more.

So the trick is to fully reduce to colloidal silver without having it turn to a dark brown cloudy (turbid) mess. Here is what I do: After making the IS I put it into a reducing beaker & into the microwave where I get it hot (anywhere between 190* and boiling).  I then put on stirrer and add the Karo/distilledwater mixture*(see below) one drop at a time. I wait about a minute between adding drops. As soon as I see any color change I stop adding drops. I then set it aside til the next morning. I many times do the wine glass test I mentioned if I am unsure if it is fully reduced. Also let my wife taste it cuz she can detect the tiniest hint of metalic taste.

*Karo/DW mixture: This is the important part.  I make my Karo/DW mix at 1 part Karo to 24 parts DW.  IE: 2 gm Karo in 48 gm water and warm it to mix. If you do not have a scale you could put 1 decent size drop of Karo in about 1 ounce of water. If I am reducing about 500 ml of colloidal silver I usually need only 1 or 2 drops of this 24:1 mixture.  (A while ago in a different thread Kephra recommended diluting the Karo. I think he may have meant about 3 to 1 or 4 to 1.  Can't remember, but I took it to the Nth degree & diluted it alot more. I was surprised to see that it only took 1 or 2 drops of my very dilute mix to reduce it & have had very good luck with no more turbidity since diluting my Karo so weak..........so thanks Kephra for that hint) I also found out that if I only heated it to 130 or 140* then it required 3 or 4 drops to reduce. Seemed like the color & clarity were best with very hot & only 1 or 2 drops.

So you added about 24 times as much Karo as I normally do. Other factors were: It was at room temp & no stirring.

Learning to make colloidal silver is a process -- not an event.

Hopefully this method will work for you so you can make FULLY reduced colloidal silver that looks just as nice as your partially reduced Colloidal Silver  :-)
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Bizill

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2014, 11:20:35 PM »
Yeah, these were my first attempts at heat reduced in one shot vs the Ionic/Karo/heat reduced.  I knew I read that colloidal silver should not taste metallic, but I followed directions pretty well and it looked so perfect.  I probably might have to play around with 1m sodium carbonate and/or Karo and heat.  I haven't even attempted to mess with cinnamon and vodka yet, though I've already purchased both.

I will attempt to crawl before I walk or run.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2014, 12:51:08 AM »
I have always had excellent results with colloidal silver that I reduced with Cinn Extract (crystal clear & nice color). I have struggled until just recently with sugar reduced though. It was inconsistent. Sometimes good sometimes just fair and sometimes (long time ago) almost as bad as your last pic. It wasn't until I drastically diluted the Karo & reduced hot with only a drop or 2 of dilute Karo that I started getting some consistently great results.

If you follow the steps I outlined in previous post I would think your results will be equally as good (assuming your pH is about same as mine). 
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Bizill

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2014, 05:23:26 AM »
Just made another beautiful batch of colloidal silver.  Perfect again, no metallic taste.

Got the hydrogen peroxide and mixed some salt.  Couldn't be bothered trying to dilute so I just went at the Gold Chloride stain.  Major scrubbing.  Might have been the salt acting like cleaning grit, but eventually it MOSTLY came out.  My back is jacked right now so it hurt just scrubbing so I'll hit it further later on.  I could probably leave it as is and not have to worry about aforementioned graduated cylinder being placed in my rear. 

Thanks Kephra for the idea.  Good to go.

Offline mraluma415

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2014, 11:27:08 PM »
This is an interesting thread. I am surprised no one commented on what exactly happened with the solution when it turned almost completely opaque.

I would rule out a higher ppm. There is no way for ionic silver to saturate a solution above 20ppm without reducing. I believe it may be possible to reach high ppm of heat reduced colloidal silver by (heat)reducing multiple runs, 20 ppm at a time.

The only thing that comes to mind are the extreme coagulation of particle clusters. It is hard to imagine 20 ppm having the potential to become so dark, no matter how large the particles become. But this seems like the most probable cause.
"The art of healing comes from nature, not from the physician. Therefore the physician must start from nature, with an open mind." - Paracelsus

Offline mraluma415

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Re: Removal of Gold Chloride stain on countertop feasible?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2014, 11:31:26 PM »
I have had issues with turbidity every now and again, usually on high ppm runs, due to the longer run time and higher count of silver oxide (laziness with cleaning anode).

I have made some improvements that were inspired by my gold refining setup. It has a submergible ceramic column that protected the cathode from anything in the solution that did not belong. Only the dissolved particles could penetrate the column and reach the anode. This also allows the electrolytes to keep a consistent charge since those are dissolved as well.

So I reversed this idea and used a paper filter (or tea bag) wrapped around the anode to assist in catching any loose silver oxide particles that may be difficult to filter later. While believe cleaning the anode is much better and prolongs the life of the anode, I don't like interrupting the process too often.  I would love to see if a ceramic column is available that is small enough to fit into a beaker.

"The art of healing comes from nature, not from the physician. Therefore the physician must start from nature, with an open mind." - Paracelsus