Colloidal Silver and Gold Forum

Production Techniques and Chemistry => Colloidal Silver Production => Topic started by: kephra on January 22, 2017, 07:12:51 PM

Title: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on January 22, 2017, 07:12:51 PM
Here are some color samples I made over the years

(https://www.cgcsforum.org/pix/80to2.jpg)
80 ppm to 2.5 ppm



(https://www.cgcsforum.org/pix/SugarTest.JPG)
20 ppm corn syrup reduced samples. I added 2 drops of dilute corn syrup to bottle A, and 20 drops to bottle B.  Both bottles heated in my microwave for 2 minutes and 30 seconds.  This shows that excess reducing agent does not harm the colloidal silver.



(https://www.cgcsforum.org/pix/ccsilver_corrected.JPG)
20 ppm corn syrup reduced



Gelatin Capped Silver Dilutions.
Left to right: 320 160 80 40 20 ppm
(https://www.cgcsforum.org/pix/320To20Gel.JPG)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Art on January 22, 2017, 07:17:59 PM
So from left to right, they are 80 , 40 , 20 , 10 , 5 and 2.5 ppm for the top picture ?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Dean on January 22, 2017, 07:18:31 PM
This is a great help Kephra!
Visual references are really helpful for those who have not had the experience and expertise to say to ourselves, Yep! that's a good'un!
I want to go through a few different ppm's just changing reducing agent and make some comparisons like this myself!

Bravo to you sir! ;D
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Dean on January 22, 2017, 07:20:39 PM
If you're second to left is 40, then Mine this morning is absolutely on the money ! ;D
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on January 22, 2017, 07:25:28 PM
So from left to right, they are 80 , 40 , 20 , 10 , 5 and 2.5 ppm for the top picture ?
Yes. 
I made 250 ml of 80 ppm, then took 100ml of the 80 and added 100ml of distilled water to get 40 ppm
Then 100 ml of the 40 was diluted to 20 by adding 100 ml to that bottle...
etc.


Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on January 22, 2017, 07:41:49 PM
When I get a chance, I will make a serial dilution of 320 ppm gelatin capped.  I managed to find 5 identical bottles so I can do 320 160 80 40 and 20 ppm.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Art on January 22, 2017, 07:51:57 PM
Thank you, Kephra!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Dean on January 22, 2017, 08:00:28 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on January 22, 2017, 09:08:51 PM
320 ppm dilutions are added in the first post.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: flapvaber on January 28, 2017, 09:13:09 AM
the top picture is that after reduction?
also what method. sugar always seem to darken the mixture after heated.
been using this site quite a bit to get me started on silver nano colloids. (10-20nm) been very helpful going into the chemistry and all. thanks.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on January 28, 2017, 12:33:20 PM
Since ionic silver is clear, it has to be reduced silver.
It was made with maltodextrin.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Art on January 28, 2017, 10:19:49 PM
320 ppm dilutions are added in the first post.

Very nice, Kephra!

That is what I have come to expect of the batches I make based on starting with 320 ppm. ;)

Art
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Art on January 28, 2017, 10:37:56 PM
I notice quite a color difference between the 20 ppm in the top picture and the 20 ppm in the bottom picture??
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on January 28, 2017, 10:39:32 PM
Yes, gelatin makes the color darker. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Art on January 28, 2017, 10:41:03 PM
Just wanted to make sure that point was covered. :)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: emanwols on March 09, 2017, 12:45:18 PM
Kephra
  the containers in your second picture appear to be plastic. i really do not think heating anything in plastic vessels is a good idea due to the possibility of chemical leaching from the plastic into the solution.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 09, 2017, 02:01:43 PM
Yes, thats a possibility.  These are Fiji water bottles, made from PET plastic.  This kind of plastic leaches antimony, which is not good for us humans. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 12, 2017, 09:46:37 AM
I am not sure if this means anything or not...

I was looking for causes of different colors of 20 ppm solutions and traced one problem to contamination.  But in the process of searching I happened upon another way to make apparently 20ppm solutions of vary degrees of yellow.  The variation is from darker than normal to clear.  All were made with the usual Na2CO3 but I am now using lab grade Glucose instead of Karo.  The volume is 200ml and all were made with 60 mA*min which should make 20ppm as we all expect (3.6 coulomb).

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3120076.JPG)

From right to left:
The right one is 10mA at 20V for 6 minutes.  This was too much current and you could see silver stuff streaming off the anode.  No real surprise that it tuned out darker than usual.

The second one from the right is 5mA at 10V for 12 minutes.  This is just the usual 20ppm process and it turned out just as expected.

The middle one is 2mA at 10V for 15 minutes (1.8C) and then 1.5mA at 10V for 20 minutes (1.8C for a total of 3.6C).  This sample turned out much lighter.

The second one from the left is 1mA at 20V for 60 minutes.  Way lighter now.

And the left one is 0.5 mA at 20V for 120 minutes.  It's clear with a white tint.  Note that at this level you must have the sugar in the solution during the process or it turns out much like the middle sample.    Not that this sample like all of them still has the Tyndall effect.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3120071.JPG)

I am using fixed cell voltages and pulse width modulation to control the current.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/20PPM_20V_1mA.png)

So I am not sure what the clear colloid is.  Its not yellow at all but is is still milky looking and reflects laser light just the same.  It does not seem to block blue light and just looks white.  The chemicals were distilled water (200ml), Na2CO30 (1mMol,  glucose (2mMol), silver (12 ga wire 2.5 inches on both electrodes with 1.75 inch separation), and the usual dissolved gases (0.83 ATM Colorado).  The resistance is 930 ohms.

So I am not sure what it means.  But it sure is fun to play with!   ;D
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 12, 2017, 11:49:20 AM
gandolf:

The left most container is precipitated silver oxide crystals, and is why I don't use pulse width modulation. 

From your data, during the ON time, you are pushing 20mA through the electrodes, with a very short duty cycle.  The result is that you produced a lot of silver oxide in a short amount of time, and then turned off the electrode voltage for the rest of the cycle, removing the electric field which purges the silver ions from the diffusion layer.  This exceeds the solubility limit of the silver oxide, in the diffusion layer so it precipitates out as silver oxide.

As your samples proceed from left to right, there is less silver oxide and more silver nanoparticles.
The rate of diffusion into the bulk liquid must be accounted for.

I believe a pulse width modulation system could be made to work with the addition of 2 more electrodes.  The additional electrodes would be placed on the outside of the flask to provide a constant electric field during the OFF time of the cycle which would aid the movement of the ions out of the diffusion layer.  This though is just not worth the trouble, so I haven't tried it.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 12, 2017, 10:46:45 PM
gandolf:
The left most container is precipitated silver oxide crystals, and is why I don't use pulse width modulation. 
Cool!  Thanks for knowing what it is!
Colloidal Silver Oxide Generation!   ;D

In case anyone wonders why I don't drink the stuff I make!   ;D  ;D 
Ag2O is nasty stuff and I only do this for fun.  Never try to make colloidal silver like I make stuff! 

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924938 (http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924938)

I do it for entertainment only!

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/Sun%2012%20Mar%202017%2003:52:08%20AM%20MDT.JPG)
Sun 12 Mar 2017 03:52:08 AM MDT

Once you play with it, and note it's rather distinctive color, I must admit that some PWM based colloidal silver maker units might be making this Ag2O stuff in excess.  And the bare battery units at first or when the batteries go dead.  (NOT trying to get into a P****** contest there...). 
Taking good and true pictures of colloidal silver is sort of hard....  Maybe our photography friends could tell use how to do it right?

Quote
From your data, during the ON time, you are pushing 20mA through the electrodes, with a very short duty cycle.  The result is that you produced a lot of silver oxide in a short amount of time, and then turned off the electrode voltage for the rest of the cycle, removing the electric field which purges the silver ions from the diffusion layer.  This exceeds the solubility limit of the silver oxide, in the diffusion layer so it precipitates out as silver oxide.

My 'play system' of the moment free floats the current during the off cycle rather than forcing the cell voltage back to zero volts.  Thus I can "see" the anode field voltages  ;)  And here they are:
There is about a 300uV offset voltage too which I do not yet understand but the data below is corrected for that...
Maybe old electrode offset voltage since they have been through a lot...  But it seems pretty strong.  Ag2O voltage??

Code: [Select]
20V drive.  Free float on off cycle. Glucose in.

mA      V Anode       %duty   Resistance
0.5     0.100         2.38    952
1       0.200         4.76    952
2       0.400         9.52    952
2.5     1.500        15.80   ?
3       1.500        21.05   1053
4       1.550        21.05   1053
5       1.600        26.32   1053
6       1.600        31.58   1053
7       1.650        36.84   1053
8       1.700        42.11   1053
9       1.700        47.37   1053
10      1.700        52.63   1053


Quote
I believe a pulse width modulation system could be made to work with the addition of 2 more electrodes.  The additional electrodes would be placed on the outside of the flask to provide a constant electric field during the OFF time of the cycle which would aid the movement of the ions out of the diffusion layer.  This though is just not worth the trouble, so I haven't tried it.

Been there, done that!!!!
I don't tell you guys everything.  ;D
I was hoping the bury this experiment under the rug but....

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/AA-1.png)

The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.  In my experiment I was using AC current and capacitance to get displacement currents across the insulators (like capacitors do) and offset them to produce a net DC voltage using a glass coated cathode.  My problem is I did not have enough frequency or voltage to force significant AC displacement currents past the glass insulators to set up the DC fields in the liquid.  Now, I CAN do that, but I put this one off for a latter day rather than pulling out those 220VAC cables and big RF power supplies...  An experiment for a later day  :D  Having a glass cathode would just be awesome even if it does require the most messy complex colloidal silver system ever made  ;D  But our low currents are in range of such systems....

Update:  I retested and fixed the above data chart.  The voltages did turn out to be just what we would expect.  Below 0.8 volts you are just making silver oxide as kaphra explained.

BTW - The cell resistance change is almost exactly centered at 0.8 volts on the anode.  That is exactly the standard electrode potential for silver.  So science does work!   ;)  But you don't want the delta free float potential to go less that 0.8V or you are just making colloidal silver oxide which is just a skin irritant...   :P
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 12, 2017, 11:04:43 PM
Quote
The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.
Thats not quite the system I was suggesting.  You have to have an active cathode in the water, but the other two electrodes should be on the outside of the glass.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 12, 2017, 11:13:05 PM
Quote
The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.
Thats not quite the system I was suggesting.  You have to have an active cathode in the water, but the other two electrodes should be on the outside of the glass.

BTW, the chemical reaction at the anode is:
Ag -e --> Ag+  (silver is oxidized by the battery)
Ag+ +OH- -> AgOH (unstable silver hydroxide)
2AgOH --> Ag2O + H2O   (Silver oxide + water)

At the cathode:
Na+ +e --> Na  (sodium is reduced by the battery)
Na + H2O --> NaOH + H2 (gas)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: WayneInPHX on March 12, 2017, 11:22:26 PM

In case anyone wonders why I don't drink the stuff I make!   ;D  ;D 


Several of us DO ingest it, BUT ONLY Colloidal Silver that is Gelatin Capped.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 12, 2017, 11:50:49 PM
Thats not quite the system I was suggesting.  You have to have an active cathode in the water, but the other two electrodes should be on the outside of the glass.  Insulators like glass pass zero coulombs...

The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.

The glass is a resistor of like 100 zillion ohms....  No current or coulombs getting past that  :)

With AC we can force displacement currents and maybe offset DC currents to our advantage.......  That is the grail I was hinting at.
Quote

@WayneInPHX
Several of us DO ingest it, BUT ONLY colloidal silver that is Gelatin Capped.

I know......  I like to ingest beer from Hawaii known as Ipapaya this night...   ;)  I only do this for fun and electrical science....  If you chose to drink it, that is a world I do not enter myself.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 13, 2017, 12:26:20 AM
Just for the LULZ....

I made up some very bad 150ppm 0.50 volt stuff with the usual Na2CO3 and glucose....

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3140084.JPG)

Probably all silver oxide in colloidal form there....  But stuff will settle out....

REALLY REALLY BAD STUFF!!!!

It might even be lethal...  Silver Oxide, Oral, Mouse, 1027 mg/kg ==> dead mouse...

http://www.dfgoldsmith.com/public/pdf/msds/msds-47-368.pdf

In this sport we need to be very aware that if you do it wrong, it could go VERY VERY wrong!!!!

Always follow the instructions and voltage limits! 

I must note that many of the "other" colloidal silver maker folks out there don't watch for this very significant problem....

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 15, 2017, 09:12:07 PM
Yeah, thats really bad!  That looks like something Tony from HerbsPlusBeadWorks would make.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Neofizz on March 16, 2017, 12:41:55 AM
Yeah, thats really bad!  That looks like something Tony from HerbsPlusBeadWorks would make.

Oh wow. I got shivers from that memory.  :o
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: WayneInPHX on March 16, 2017, 04:00:20 PM
Just for the LULZ....

I made up some very bad 150ppm 0.50 volt stuff with the usual Na2CO3 and glucose....

REALLY REALLY BAD STUFF!!!!

It LITERALLY looks like gray water sewage!   GOOD JOB! LOL     Yup, .5 volt NO WORK.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Bobby on March 17, 2017, 12:40:21 AM
  You know seeing that picture of you reminds me of Bryan Cranston aka Walter White aka Heisenberg of the Breaking Bad series.  😎

Bobby

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 17, 2017, 12:56:24 AM
I made some 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 ppm stuff.
(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3160092aa.JPG)

I tried to make it very clean.  ;)
(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3160086aa.JPG)

I just used the usual amount of Na2CO3 and when it was finished I added glucose to the expected ppm level of silver.  It ran very clean and changed color within a minute when the glucose was finally added.
I did not heat it or use any gelatin or anything.  It was magnetically stirred.

20, 40 and 80 ppm seemed to go fine.  But after that it did not change anymore.  In fact is seems to be a slight shade lighter over the next 90 minutes....

I suspect that after about 80ppm the extra silver ions just saturate the solution and reattach to the anode and maybe the cathode and could no longer be absorbed into the water.

I used 20V across the cell at 5mA RMS pulsed and it had 2.05 volts of battery voltage*:

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/TEK00012.png)

It's all very clear though and no silver oxides :)

*Perhaps there is an official term for the voltage the cell runs at when open circuit??
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 17, 2017, 02:38:56 AM
I think you have shown once again why we do not use pulse width modulation.
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
I really doubt that any of your ppms are correct.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cwgoodrich on March 17, 2017, 04:14:42 PM
My 100 ppm used to be dark, as seen in your photo. Now my 100 ppm
Looks like 20 ppm. I bought new silver rods. Redid my electrolite, and
No change. Still looks like 20 ppm. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 17, 2017, 06:10:44 PM
The obvious answer is that something must be different in your process or equipment.  It would help if you could detail both for us.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 18, 2017, 12:35:04 AM
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
I really doubt that any of your ppms are correct.

In the pulsed system the circuit is open during the off cycle so no current can flow backwards in the wires.  But indeed the silver ions might be recollecting on the electrodes in solution during that off time and robbing the solution of the expected silver ions.  If so then there seems to be some upper limit of ppm.

I set it up again with a DC current controlled system of ~15V, 5.00mA, 48 min, 0.2 liter to get 80ppm.  No pulsing or anything with a 25V power source going through a DC current regulator.  I adjusted the voltage with the anode in solution 61mm and the cathode in 6mm.  This should make 80ppm in the usual way like normal people do it.  ;)

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3170103.JPG)

By briefly interrupting the current I can see that the "galvanic voltage" is still 2.1V in this system too.  In fact that voltage is very hard to change.  Maybe with different electrode sizes/spacing it would change?

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/TEK00017.png)

I did notice that silver "smoke" was poring off the cathode.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3170097.JPG)

Happily, when it was finished the solution was very clear.  I thought the silver stuff off the cathode would cloud the water but it was no problem.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3170104.JPG)

And the result was that the DC solution was just a bit darker than the pulsed case 80ppm from before.  It's the one third from the right.  So the limiting effect might start at say 50ppm.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3170107.JPG)

The only things that I might be doing different are my voltage is ~15V instead of the recommended "10 volts or above" and I am using glucose instead of Karo without heating.  I have also gotten pretty good at keeping it all very clean.

So I will do some more experiments and see if I can figure anything cool out.  :)

UPDATE:
I was moving the electrodes in and out of the water and all around and found that it had very little effect on the 2.1V galvanic voltage.  That seems to be some intrinsic magical good voltage.

The voltage actually starts out at about 0.3V and slowly builds up to 2.1 volts in 2 to 3 minutes.  This seems to coincide with the black coating build up on the anode.

The distance and level of the electrodes definitely does have an effect on the current level needed to maintain the 2.1 volts!   
With the electrodes in the usual place I get 2.22mA needed to get to a low 1.0 volt galvanic voltage (that is an easy point to measure).  That is 905 ohms on the cell.
With the electrodes close I get 1.03 ma needed at 645 ohms.
Those are sort of surprisingly high currents needed.  If the current is too low you will end up with the nasty stuff I showed earlier in the thread.
A concern would be if one spread the electrodes far apart to get a high cell voltage but let the current drop too low and you lost this galvanic voltage.
You actually would want high cell voltage and good current.  Or, perhaps if you have 2.1 volts of galvanic voltage the rest of the voltage on the cell does not matter.

I tried setting the galvanic voltage to 1 volt and switching between 10V and 20V across the cell (same RMS current) and the galvanic voltage stayed exactly the same.  So the galvanic voltage seems to be controlled by current.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: bill on March 18, 2017, 02:27:52 AM
Quote
You actually would want high cell voltage and good current.  Or, perhaps if you have 2.1 volts of galvanic voltage the rest of the voltage on the cell does not matter.
The actual minimum is 3.52 volts.  It takes 2.72v to reduce the sodium at the cathode.  If you don't have that, then silver plates out onto the cathode and is lost.  In that case, your solution ppm is less than you think.  You need voltages above that to compensate for the voltage loss in the bulk fluid.  On top of that, the stronger electric field helps move the ions through the solution.
There is simply nothing good about using lower voltages. 


Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: bill on March 18, 2017, 04:08:52 PM
To show how complicated the chemistry actually is:
Heres something (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Art on March 18, 2017, 07:34:08 PM
Kephra,

I'm sure glad you are here to make sense out this process........that was way more than I can understand! :)

Art
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 19, 2017, 01:30:14 AM
To show how complicated the chemistry actually is:
Heres something (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf)

Many many thanks for info like this!  So much really really GOOD info is behind Elsevier's science high dollar paper paywall....  :P  I could hit up all the PHD kids, or walk 1000 yards to the state university library (Prolly all on-line too but I am too old for that crap  ;D.....)  I actually had a 'free" science paper site once but it did not catch on very well.  But these days, I rather like to make make own science and let them all chase me.  ;D

And too that note, check this stuff out for a color sample!   ;D

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3180113a.JPG)

That is distilled water at 23C "cooked" with two a bit warn but clean 12ga wire electrodes.  Nothing was added to the water.   No Na2CO3 or reducer and basically following the basic protocol for "Making 20 ppm Ionic Silver Without Electrolyte" in the Elite 2 manual.  No pulsing, but pure DC....  ;)

Before adding the electrolyte and glucose after it was finished, is was very clear...

Just two 12ga silver wires about 60mm in 200ml of distilled water.  2.00mA for 30 min.  After that 0.2cc of 1 Mol Na2CO3 was addend and then 0.1cc of 1Mol glucose.

Everything was done with a magnetic stirrer pushing things around moderately. 

Of course, how does one get 2.000 mA across the electrodes in DI water? 

I have a Very BIG toy chest!!   ;D ;D

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/P3180110a.JPG)

I dusted this baby off...  10,000 volts at 2.5 mA.....   ;D  I still haze MUCH bigger too!  ;D But this one still is 120V.

Never play with high voltage power supplies like this unless you are an internationally known high voltage guru like I am!   :D
No, really though...  Don't do high voltages unless you really are super careful!!!  You will burn your s**** off super quick!

But with my toy I could run 2.00mA across my 200ml distilled water for 30 min to get to the grail of 20 ppm and that's how it turned out......
Quote
kephra:  I think you have shown once again why we do not use pulse width modulation.
I really doubt that any of your ppms are correct.
But maybe "color" does not mean jack s*** either....   ;)

If processes are made the same and are reproducible that IS a giant step!!
But process range scans in this game seem to indicate massive verifiability....

We actually need to pin down the color game much more!!!!

Using the same numbers, we can make almost any color now...................
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 19, 2017, 02:23:58 AM
Well if you had actually read the information on this site, you would already know the answer.
But I will give you a hint.  Think bells, large bells and small bells.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 19, 2017, 02:42:05 AM
Well if you had actually read the information on this site, you would already know the answer.
But I will give you a hint.  Think bells, large bells and small bells.

I do not understand......

Why try and  give "hints" unless you are trying to be tricky or hiding things......

Just give the info straight up so we ALL can see it.......

I try to be totally straight forward in my info and you should too.

I think I have read the info on this site more than 99%  ;)

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 19, 2017, 02:59:22 AM
I already have given the info, you just didn't bother to read it. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 19, 2017, 08:54:21 AM
I already have given the info, you just didn't bother to read it.

Ok, fair enough.  I will study this more...

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1292.msg10542#msg10542
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=994.msg7298#msg7298
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=755.msg4219#msg4219
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_plasmon_resonance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuCDCIvDzt0
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 20, 2017, 12:56:15 AM
To show how complicated the chemistry actually is:
Heres something (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf)
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf)

That actually explains so very much!!!

This chart is pure gold!

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/SilverPaper-01.png)

That exactly coincides and explains my voltage vs. current tests and why I see those flat spots and jumps in the galvanic voltages!  :D

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/Screenshot%20from%202017-03-17%2020-26-38.png)

I suppose if I make it on specifically those voltage levels I could make all kinds of screwed up stuff!   8)

But on the other hand the paper also eludes to all that can go wrong!  :-\
Total cell voltage, specific current, electrode configuration and their electrical fields....
These can all mess up the "pretty colors" we expect to see.

Fortunately the SilverTron is at least a standard system that can make reproducible results for many people and has rock solid theory behind it.
But you have to keep it very clean.  Any contaminates can have a drastic effect of messing things up.
I use disposable plastic containers that are never cleaned but just thrown away - with apologies to the Lorax...   :'(
But that does eliminate most contaminates.
I also cover the thing with plastic wrap to prevent spit particles form getting in while I am laughing historically while listening to Tony's Youtube videos...   ;D
I did have problems with electromagnetic waves from the switching power supplies messing up my colloidal silver measurements....  ::)  But no worries from
Chemtrails......

I must wonder...  If a "standard" really could be made to "judge" colloidal silver that normal amateurs with home or a little Amazon science equipment could reliably reproduce......  Particle size and PPM are giant factors....

The SilverTron is almost there except for cell voltage control and electrode configuration.  Many on the outside of this forum hate adding things like Na2CO3...  My own little toy varies pulse width and frequency all over the place to try and control things....  High voltage is fun for "me" but that is out of reach for just about everyone...

So I am thinking along the lines of evaporating off the water and studying what is left.  But that increases concentrations while still in the liquid that might cause odd precipitations....

We also need to work on electrode configuration...  12ga wires vs. some bullion things is just messing everything up!

Of course the 320ppm is so far out there...  Lets see if we can manage quantize 1ppm first.   ;)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 20, 2017, 01:11:05 AM
Quote
We also need to work on electrode configuration...  12ga wires vs. some bullion things is just messing everything up!
No we don't.  Either one makes perfect Colloidal Silver provided allowance is made for current density and stirring.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using sodium carbonate.  As I have explained many times, it does 3 very beneficial things, and the amount required is far less sodium than a person gets with food.  The same goes for glucose based reducing agents.

IMO, you are looking for problems where there are none.  The goal is to make silver nanoparticles in the 14nm size range.  That is the best size for safety and efficacy according the lab research that has been done over the years.  That is already simple to do.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 20, 2017, 02:28:40 AM
Quote
No we don't.  Either one makes perfect colloidal silver provided allowance is made for current density and stirring.
I respectfully disagree...

While the edges and contours might be making "perfect" stuff, the large flat surfaces might be making low voltage starved "sewage"......

Surface current density is a very big deal in this game.  As the voltage paper you gave us shows, low current areas are contributing bad contaminates.  We must just about eliminate silver oxide for sure.

Quote
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using sodium carbonate.  As I have explained many times, it does 3 very beneficial things, and the amount required is far less sodium than a person gets with food.  The same goes for glucose based reducing agents.

Of course!  But some others like to blame their own failures on that.  We need better data really to explain why things turn out the way they do....  If it does not go right, adding sugars and gelatin is just a massive "blame game" target.

Quote
IMO, you are looking for problems where there are none. 

I think I know of some "problems"....  :)
I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.

Rest assured, I am not some evil person here to hurt you or anything.  But I am a person that can see problems and fix them.

I think we need to get away from Karo and go to good grade reliable glucose*. 
Then we need to get a "standard" electrode configuration that has good current density control facts behind it.  Even the two rod configuration is vastly more controllable than silver bullion objects.
Then we need to get that cell voltage under control.  That IS a very big one!
Then we need to get ppm under control.  Might be the easiest.   ;)
Then we need to get actually reliably measuring all this stiff under control...  And making this stuff actually measurable and provable is a GIANT task!!!  Because if we can't prove it, to the level of anyone really caring being able to prove it too for themselves, it really is just all BS...

So sorry, but I do see few problems in paradise  ;)

*I like glucose because if any living human complains about their being allergic or opposed to it....   ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 20, 2017, 11:48:24 AM
Quote
Surface current density is a very big deal in this game.  As the voltage paper you gave us shows, low current areas are contributing bad contaminates.  We must just about eliminate silver oxide for sure.
This statement shows your misunderstanding.  We do not want to eliminate silver oxide, we want to make it.  It is the starting point, and is the only thing you can make with silver and electricity whether you add electrolyte or not.
Quote
While the edges and contours might be making "perfect" stuff, the large flat surfaces might be making low voltage starved "sewage".....
We are not making sewage.  Thats what happens when you do not keep sufficient voltage across the cell.
Quote
Of course!  But some others like to blame their own failures on that.  We need better data really to explain why things turn out the way they do....  If it does not go right, adding sugars and gelatin is just a massive "blame game" target.
You are just showing your ignorance of the process.  You seem to have no clue what those are for.
Quote
I think we need to get away from Karo and go to good grade reliable glucose*. 
Glucose is not the best reducing agent.  It is too fast and the molecules are too small for effective capping.  Corn syrup is slower and being a mixture of glucose and maltose, is better at capping (stabilizing).  Pure maltose is slightly better than corn syrup, but is harder to obtain for the average person.
Quote
Then we need to get a "standard" electrode configuration that has good current density control facts behind it.  Even the two rod configuration is vastly more controllable than silver bullion objects.
Flat bullion electrodes have not been a problem for anyone, and allow much faster processing.  What you have neglected is the fact that the stronger electric field at the edges also moves the ions from the diffusion layer faster than where the field is weaker.  It is self compensating.
Quote
Then we need to get that cell voltage under control.  That IS a very big one!
Not a problem at all.  Keep the cell voltage up to at least 10 volts, and every redox is covered and provides good electrophoresis.
Quote
Then we need to get ppm under control.  Might be the easiest.
Thats already done, and has been known for 183 years.  Its also easily provable.
Quote
Then we need to get actually reliably measuring all this stiff under control...  And making this stuff actually measurable and provable is a GIANT task!!!  Because if we can't prove it, to the level of anyone really caring being able to prove it too for themselves, it really is just all BS
Luckily, that has already been done in laboratories around the world and with a bigger toolbox than yours. 

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Bobby on March 20, 2017, 12:23:15 PM
gandolf,

  The remarks about the SilverTron are very rude and uncalled for!  And apologizing for being rude or blunt or whatever you call your less than sincere comments is ludicrous.

  Kephra asks the same thing of all of us...to read and understand the processes involved with making colloidal silver.  We are not ask to remake the SilverTron line of colloidal silver generators.

  If you do not own one or even had the chance to use one, your comments don't have a leg to stand on.  You are assuming you know exactly what is happening inside on of Kephra's SilverTrons.  We all want to learn more about the improvements that can be made in the production of colloidal silver.  And I'm sure there will be discoveries made in the future.

  I own 3 different brands of colloidal silver generators.  I have seen many reviews of dozens of other colloidal silver generators that are not favorable.  Therefore there are many other makers of bad colloidal silver generators that you can hassle.  I have never read a bad word about the SilverTron till you.  And you don't even own one.

  The SilverTron does exactly what it claims to do.  Whenever a bad batch is made with a SilverTron being use, it always come back as a user problem.  There are many members who have built their own setups, both simple and complicated.  And with the input and advice from Kephra, other members and their own efforts they are making excellent colloidal silver and colloidal gold.

  We really appreciate good advise from all the members who contribute to this forum.  We encourage participation and input.  And you have made some interesting points.  But in your own words you are new to colloidal silver world and don't intend on using it anyway.

  But it's all starting to feel a little like you are here to undermine the SilverTron and Kephra as an inventor, chemist and electrical engineer.  So if that's the case you are barking up the wrong tree.

  If in the future these comments prove to be wrong, I will make the appropriate apologies.

 Bobby
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 20, 2017, 10:39:50 PM
gandolf,

  The remarks about the SilverTron are very rude and uncalled for!  And apologizing for being rude or blunt or whatever you call your less than sincere comments is ludicrous.


Bobby and keprha,

I did not intend for my comments to be rude or in anyway as an attack on kephra or the SiverTron units.

Kephra knows probably 1000X more than any other person in the colloidal silver industry.  He is the only person anyone should listen too if you are making and using colloidal silver for personal use.  The SilverTron units are a reliable gold standard for colloidal silver generators and I completely agree that the other units out there are unreliable if not simply dangerous.  Kephra also has vastly more process and chemical knowledge than probably anyone ever in the colloidal silver world.  That is actually much more important than the generator itself since kephra knows how to make it work very well.

I am an outsider.  I see the colloidal silver world from many perspectives.  There are 10,000X more people using three batteries and wire than SilverTron users and that really should change.  I am not here to change the SilverTron, kephra, or you guys here.  You are already in fine hands.  But in the colloidal silver users world you are the 0.01%  Just look at all the stupid colloidal silver videos on you tube that have over 100,000 views.  They must be doing something right...  :o

Trying to convince others is very difficult.  They are religious about what they think is right and they will not easily change from making colloidal silver exactly the same way their grand dad made it.  And then there are people out there that will tell folks anything to sell them a resistor and and LED in a box...
The only way to really convince them is to show them directly or have them try and test things themselves.  Unfortunately, they will not buy an Elite II or read the articles simply because we tell them too.  We wish they would, but they won't. 

However, you can get them to try things for themselves.  Cell voltage is a perfect example since just about anyone can try high and low voltages and see the difference.  Then you can tell them why that happens (if you know).  Then you can get them to play with colors and concentrations and ionic and reduced solutions.  Maybe even get them to use a timer.  Trying to get them to use washing soda in their Colloidal Silver is a giant step.  They think washing soda is just for cleaning socks....
At least they are pretty good about using pure silver and distilled water.  But if they really do it perfectly that won't work and then they go back to using rainwater and old quarters they bought at the flea market.

So I probably won't change you guys here even if I do see a minor problem here or there.  That's fine.  But I would like to change a few other people's minds.
Don't worry, I won't try and convince anyone to go buy $20,000 of electronic test equipment.  But I might try to tell them exactly what it is doing and mention that a guy sells these SilverTron units that do the exact same thing automatically.  They will ask a lot of stupid questions and I would like to have the answers to some of the weirder ones.

So I ask questions here and try odd and stupid things.  But there are thousands of people out there that are doing even odder things than me every day.  In order to try and tell them anything, you have to walk in their shoes too.  It really helps if they ask "Have you ever tried to make the silver with a Tesla coil?" if you can answer - yes...

I will try and be a little less annoying.  I think I am at the point now of working on things that are outside of this forum's general interest.  But don't worry I won't go far.   ;)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: bill on March 20, 2017, 11:38:30 PM
Quote
"Have you ever tried to make the silver with a Tesla coil?

Actually, I have done something very close using a high voltage neon sign transformer.  It lead to the discovery that silver will heat reduce at temperatures near boiling.
Quote
I think I know of some "problems"....  :)
I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.
That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 22, 2017, 01:15:45 AM
Quote
Actually, I have done something very close using a high voltage neon sign transformer.  It lead to the discovery that silver will heat reduce at temperatures near boiling.

Nice!  But I must super warn everyone NEVER do what this moron does...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQwo78Q9gkQ

I assume this guy killed himself since...

Microwave oven transformers are just about at the very same voltage, current, DC (with the typical voltage doubler of old microwaves) of electric chair death machines....

Never play with high voltages in this sport unless you know way too much......

Quote
That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

I imagine it as a simple current controller with a uC to do the coulomb time integration.

But maybe it can do more.  I know what I "wish" t could do. :-*

But it is totally proprietary and there is really zero info as to what is inside it.  Which is fine in this case.

BTW- I never meant for my comments to drive this nice color thread so off topic....  :(

Perhaps all this BS should just be deleted from this thread...

That would be fine with me.  And I apologize for some how starting the OT.  I did bad...  :-[

BBTW - Most of the whiny complaints I mentioned have now been solved!  The field stress issue solution is too obvious and dumb to mention...   :-[

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: i_vanovich on March 22, 2017, 03:04:33 AM
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
can this mean chemical conversion from electricity is occurring with off time?
or effect of electrolytic reversal?

if yes
how will differentiation with reverse polarity become established?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 22, 2017, 12:16:04 PM
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
can this mean chemical conversion from electricity is occurring with off time?
or effect of electrolytic reversal?

if yes
how will differentiation with reverse polarity become established?
If the anode is simply disconnected during the off-time, there is no current flow so no reverse plating but the cell will exhibit some open circuit voltage.  The amount of voltage depends on the electrolyte, concentration of the electrolyte, pH, and cell temperature.  This is basically a silver and silver-oxide battery cell during the off time.  The electrode which is more chemically reactive will be the negative. 

If the anode is grounded during the off time, then there will be some current flow and there will be reverse plating until the cell is discharged.

Pulse width modulation (turning the power to the anode on and off to get an average current) doesn't make any sense, and is an overall detriment to the process.  Reversing polarity is even worse as it destroys the ability to predict how much silver goes into solution.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 22, 2017, 01:32:20 PM
...
Quote
That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

I imagine it as a simple current controller with a uC to do the coulomb time integration.

But maybe it can do more.  I know what I "wish" t could do. :-*
What?  Turn lead into gold perhaps?  I wish it could do that too.

But I was not referring to the SilverTron, I was referring to your lack of knowledge of the process. 
Quote
But it is totally proprietary and there is really zero info as to what is inside it.  Which is fine in this case.
That is another unwarranted assumption.  I have told everyone how it works on this forum, and even posted pictures of the circuit boards and construction.  Maybe you should check your facts before making such statements.  I have even stated where the inspiration for the SilverTron Elite came from.
Quote
...
BBTW - Most of the whiny complaints I mentioned have now been solved!  The field stress issue solution is too obvious and dumb to mention...   :-[
Field stress is not a problem and has never been a problem as I have already explained in other posts if a person follows my process recommendations.  If you have a problem, you are doing something wrong.

The purpose of this forum is to show people how to make their own high quality and effective Colloidal Silver using non-toxic readily available materials.  I believe I have been very successful at that.  The forum will soon turn 9 years old.  Although there are only 250 members at this time (because I delete people who have not been active for a period of time), thousands of people came here, learned what they needed, and moved on.  You (gandolf) are member number 11345. 

So far, you have contributed nothing of value to that endeavor.  I have no idea why you want to experiment with Colloidal Silver, since you are not interested in the health aspects, but the rest of us are... that is why we are here.  You continually allude to knowing more than me or the rest of the forum, but you have shown nothing except how to fail.  We already knew that.  You seem like a person who looks at 3 trees and then professes to know everything about the forest.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: i_vanovich on March 22, 2017, 04:32:51 PM
If the anode is grounded during the off time, then there will be some current flow and there will be reverse plating until the cell is discharged.
thank-you with detailing this explanation
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 29, 2017, 07:38:05 PM
I thought this was interesting.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/2017-03-29.jpg)

They are all 0.2 liter with 2 inch 12ga. wire electrodes spaced 2.25 inches apart.  The cathode is fully inserted like the anode.  The usual 1mMol/L of Na2CO3 and put in 1mMol/l Glucose after the runs.
They are all 20ppm with 3.6 Coulomb used for 0.2 liters.
The voltage across the cell was 25.0 volts and the current was varied (from left to right) as 20, 10, 5, 2.5, 1.25 and 0.63 mA.
This is using a current pulse with system at 977Hz with the circuit going open (not grounded) during the off time.
They were magnetically stirred at room temperature.  The cell resistances where around 1.21 kOhms.  The galvanic off voltages where 2.1 volts and the left three and varied greatly on the other three.

The left most one at 20mA was darker.  Probably larger particles but I did note that the cathode was "smoking" stuff* into the solution which apparently dissolves since the final solution is completely clear.  The current duty cycle was 89%
One interesting thing is that the anode was very easy to clean after the run.  It was just sort of a light gray.  Perhaps the higher current makes the silver oxide not stick as much.  It also only ran for 3 minutes at this current.

The next 10 mA was lighter and more what we are used to.  There might have been just a hint of smoke off the cathode.  The anode was harder to clean.  The current duty cycle was 48%.

The 5ma sample looked completely normal and what we are used to.  It was the lightest yellow.  The anode was still harder to clean and the cathode had a slight cast to it.  It seems exactly like the same stuff made with DC and a slightly inserted cathode at 5mA.  The current duty cycle was 24%

The 2.5 mA sample was a bit darker and just very slightly milkish cloudy but you would not notice if it was not next to the others.  The galvanic off voltage was a bit lower at 1.8 volts (the voltage starts to drop off at 3mA).  It was probably showing the first signs of low galvanic voltage.  The anode on this and the rest were tough to clean.  The current duty cycle was 11.5%.

The 1.25mA sample only had a galvanic off voltage of 0.5V and was darker and pretty cloudy.  It had that messed up look to it.  The current duty cycle was 5.2%.

The 0.65mA sample was darker still and more cloudy.  The galvanic voltage was about 400mV and the current duty cycle was only 2.9%.

So it looks like higher currents like 10 and especially 20 mA made larger particles and darker solutions.  But the anodes were easier to clean and it ran very fast at 3 and 6 minutes.  5mA looked the most "perfect" and what we are used to seeing.  2.5mA was not bad but it do show a few slight signs of trouble.  1.5 and 0.65mA had low galvanic off voltages and were dark and cloudy.

Some variables would be the electrode size and spacing with would vary the cell resistance.  That would also vary the current duty cycle for a given current and duty cycle has a large effect on the galvanic voltage.

So you can make Colloidal Silver with pulsed current.  Is it just a whole lot harder and more can go wrong.  But it does allow one see some interesting effects.  Personally, I find it fascinating!

*Do we know what that "smoke" off the cathode is and does it have an official name?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: bill on March 29, 2017, 08:31:39 PM
Quote
*Do we know what that "smoke" off the cathode is and does it have an official name?
Its a mixture of silver salts that precipitated in the diffusion layer.  Its mostly silver oxide with a little silver carbonate.  If you didn't have the stirrer, it would have fallen to the bottom and reduced on the surface creating a mirror. At least thats what happens with a glass jar.

Once again, you have shown why PWM is not a good idea.  It destroys the electrophoretic effect.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 29, 2017, 11:21:11 PM
Quote
Once again, you have shown why PWM is not a good idea.

Yes.  Normal folks should NEVER get a PWM based Colloidal Silver machine*...  There is a LOT that can go wrong!  They are fairly tame at higher currents but at lower currents (low current duty cycle) the low galvanic voltages are a giant killer mess!  And then there are the PWM current and coulomb  calculations (what could possible go wrong  ;D  I finally figured out why I need a Coulomb calibration factor of 1.03765)...   But as a purely scientific tool PWM tools do help track down the odd effects.   ;)

The higher currents are interesting in that the electrodes are cleaner.  It is also much faster.  But larger particles are the downfall.  But that is a "choice" between purist and the impatient folks  ;)


Quote
Its a mixture of silver salts that precipitated in the diffusion layer.  Its mostly silver oxide with a little silver carbonate.

I am curious about one point that kephra may know right off.  In the DC case using a little tiny cathode surface area (cathode mostly pulled out of the solution) to get the cell voltage up we see the electrode smoke off all those silver salts.  In the big cathode surface under PWM case we don't "see" that with the eyes.

But I have a funny feeling that the silver salts/oxides going into the solution are just the same either way.  With the small surface, the salts+ production is just visible and in the large cathode (same current with PWM)  case we just can't "see" it.  But in the end, the amounts of silver salts+ going into the solution is just the same either way?

Quote
At least thats what happens with a glass jar.

Glass has a relative permittivity of 4.7 and  plastics are in the same range.  But plastics are "plastic" so they have a lot of "issues..."  :o   All that oily stuff might mess up the plating and stickyness...


*I have a long list of very interesting questions to ask makers of PWM based Colloidal Silver machines that I bet they don't have answers too  ;D  ;D 

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: bill on March 30, 2017, 12:49:44 AM
We want silver salts, mainly silver oxide to be IN SOLUTION.  What you see as smoke is the same silver salts precipitated out because they exceeded the solubility limit in the diffusion layer.  How long it takes those particles to redissolve depends on how big the crystals have grown in the diffusion layer. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on March 30, 2017, 01:40:05 PM
...I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.
Nobody on this forum, I repeat nobody, has used, made, experimented with, or made Colloidal Silver with as many different commercial machines than me.

I can categorically state that the SilverTron is

i) as near perfect as it is possible to make a machine (I don't have the latest revision of the Elite firmware, but that does not alter the process or affect its' capabilities).

ii) the ONLY way to make Colloidal Silver to an accurate ppm for injection without electrolyte. (This may not be an issue, as we have had a qualified Doctor in Africa, where they do not see fit to trouble the AMA or BMA with requests to be allowed to prescribe things which work, but which are not necessarily approved-of by Big Pharma, use it with great success). However, it does mean that the product can be made very slowly with great accuracy.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on March 30, 2017, 10:54:10 PM
I made some with regulated DC voltage for comparison.  The four new ones are in the front color matched to the earlier tests.

(http://team-titanium.com/~silver/b/2017-03-30a.JPG)

Only an occasional 50uS off time to measure the galvanic voltage.  One thing (perhaps the only thing) current pulsing IS good for!   ;D
They are all 0.2 liter with 2 inch 12ga. wire electrodes spaced 2.25 inches apart.  The cathode is fully inserted like the anode.  The usual 1mMol/L of Na2CO3 and put in 1mMol/l Glucose after the runs.
They are all 20ppm with 3.6 Coulomb used for 0.2 liters.

The first one on the front left is 20.0VDC.  The current was 14.37mADC and the galvanic voltage was 2.3V.  This made lots of precipitation at the cathode.  But like kephre says it actually does just dissolve into the solution with a little time.  At the end of a run at this level it might be a good idea to stir it a little while until all this is dissolved before adding the Karo.  I wonder if the precipitate could be made in a powdered form to make colloidal silver just by adding a powder to distilled water.  Sort of like powdered Gatoraid?  Probably not very shelf stable especially if it had to be mixed with NaCO3 and Glucose powder*.

The second sample from the left is 10.0VDC at 6.73mA.  The galvanic voltage is 2.04V fairly clear and this turned out only slightly darker than the normal 5mA stuff.  Looked perfectly good and normal really.

The third sample is 5V at 2.74mA.  The galvanic voltage started to drop a little to 1.92V and it shows a little low voltage trouble but not noticeable unless compared to the others.

The last sample is at 2.5V, 1.60mA with a galvanic voltage of only 0.64 volts.  This has the full orange milky look to it caused by low voltage.

So the results actually turned out just as expected.  So after two months I am starting to get a little good at this stuff  ;D  I should have just bought a SilverTron......   ;)  But I know a whole lot more by designing and building my own car and understanding exactly how it works rather that just going over to Ford and buying another Mustang.   ;)

Quote
We want silver salts, mainly silver oxide to be IN SOLUTION.  What you see as smoke is the same silver salts precipitated out because they exceeded the solubility limit in the diffusion layer.  How long it takes those particles to redissolve depends on how big the crystals have grown in the diffusion layer. 
Yes!  I made a bunch and sat there are watched it dissolve!  I guess it is good stuff after all.  And I bet no matter if you see it or not the net amount is pretty much exactly the same no matter what "good" process is used.

But I am thinking if one uses high currents for faster production one should wait after a run until all the precipitates are fully stirred and dissolved in before adding the reducer.

Quote
cfnisbet
Nobody on this forum, I repeat nobody, has used, made, experimented with, or made colloidal silver with as many different commercial machines than me.

I can categorically state that the SilverTron is...

The SilverTron is a cool uC controlled current source and Coulomb counter...  Any kid can make the first one and any EE can make the second.
But what really makes the SilverTron THE magic machine is the pure genius Bill has put into it this whole sport!  His great knowledge of chemistry and electronics came together to just solve this whole world!

Quote
ii) the ONLY way to make colloidal silver to an accurate ppm for injection without electrolyte. ... However, it does mean that the product can be made very slowly with great accuracy.
Micro and nano amps  :D  While still keeping the voltage high  ???  --  Oh...  I guess if the resistance is 250000 Ohms keeping the voltage high is pretty easy!   :)

I have not believed anything in the colloidal silver world unless I can prove it for myself.  Of course, I have no knowledge in most of this so the learning was hard and I messed up many times.  However, I have never been able to disprove or fault Bill on anything!  If he was BSing us, I would have found it by now. 
Most colloidal silver guru's get ignored after watching their youtube videos for 15 seconds........
But Bills genius and thought behind all this really had made this a fascinating and great journey for me!

*The pharmaceutical folks have a ton of ways to fix that...  Colloidal silver "timed release"....  Ambien - $3  AmbienCR - $105!!!!  Those F.......  Must stop commenting now... ;)


Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 31, 2017, 02:43:59 PM
Quote
Yes!  I made a bunch and sat there are watched it dissolve!  I guess it is good stuff after all.  And I bet no matter if you see it or not the net amount is pretty much exactly the same no matter what "good" process is used.

But I am thinking if one uses high currents for faster production one should wait after a run until all the precipitates are fully stirred and dissolved in before adding the reducer.
You can buy silver oxide commercially.  It dissolves very very slowly.  I tried making 20 ppm Colloidal Silver by dissolving silver oxide powder. It took a month for it to dissolve.  The dissolution time depends on the size of the crystals.  The smaller the crystals, the quicker they dissolve.

Its really not good to have silver oxide crystals streaming from the anode, since these crystals are not in solution and not ionic, they are not current carriers.  This means they are not included in the current/time relationship for ppm.  If there are still undissolved silver oxide crystals at the end of electrolysis, when they finally dissolve, the ppm will be higher than predicted. 

Vigorous stirring decreases the dissolution time, and also scrubs the diffusion layer preventing silver oxide from building up past its solubility limit.  This allows the use of a much smaller anode.  Without the stirring, a larger anode helps keep the ionic silver within the diffusion layer from reaching saturation.

BTW, you said you had 'smoke' coming off the cathode.  I think you meant anode.  The anode is the electrode where oxidation occurs, so the anode in an electrolysis cell is the positive electrode.  In a galvanic cell, it is the negative electrode.

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Neofizz on March 31, 2017, 06:49:42 PM
I see the 'smoke' coming off the cathode (not the anode) when I do my runs. I figured it was gas being produced. When making 320 PPM the gelatin seems to make them (the gas bubbles) linger and get caught up in the vortex. The result is that for about the first half of my 320 PPM runs there is foam on top and swirling around in the vortex.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 31, 2017, 07:53:50 PM
Yes, Smoke coming off the negative electrode is not silver oxide, it is hydrogen gas from sodium reacting with water.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gandolf on April 01, 2017, 04:29:42 AM
Yes, Smoke coming off the negative electrode is not silver oxide, it is hydrogen gas from sodium reacting with water.

Yes I see.  The smoke of the cathode is indeed tiny bubbles of hydrogen.  They make the stirring water very sparkley under laser light.  Once stirring is stopped they disappear very quickly.

Quote
Its really not good to have silver oxide crystals streaming from the anode, since these crystals are not in solution and not ionic, they are not current carriers.  This means they are not included in the current/time relationship for ppm.  If there are still undissolved silver oxide crystals at the end of electrolysis, when they finally dissolve, the ppm will be higher than predicted. 

I understand.  So if you do see any "smoke" coming off the anode you need to turn the current down.

Thanks for the insight into this!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Gina on November 30, 2017, 06:09:59 PM
I made my first batch last night I LOVE this machine thank you kephra it turned out awesome!!!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on November 30, 2017, 06:13:11 PM
Great! I love the sound of success :)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: onandoff on December 15, 2017, 02:41:00 AM
320 ppm dilutions are added in the first post.

I don't want use gmo reducer 1st run 50-50 karo  5 drops at   20 drops washing soda add together I tried 120 ppm clean silver with blow torch. I came out with 40 ppm used spinner ands cleaned constantly what am I doing wrong same problem . Tried made with Organic Ceylon volka 2 days in ta bag 3-4 drops . still can get silvertron get  above 40 ppm
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on December 15, 2017, 03:25:12 AM
What GMO reducer?  There is no genetic material in Karo corn syrup.
How do you know its 40 ppm?
You need to be more specific with your procedure.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Etheric Zone 1111 on August 02, 2018, 11:16:46 PM
Using your 20 PPM formula my fist 2 batches came out a beautiful golden yellow!
Thank you very much Sir for your time and help.

Ed
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on August 03, 2018, 12:10:08 AM
Yep that looks pretty good!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Etheric Zone 1111 on August 03, 2018, 12:13:50 AM
It taste good too! No metallic taste 👍
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on November 22, 2018, 05:57:00 PM
Hi Kephra, I am new to the forum, so please bear with me... I have started experimenting in August this year with a two-step process: First generating ionic silver with cold water LDVC method and then reducing under heated conditions. In order to estimate ppm of total silver content I rely on Faraday's formula (apart from color of reduced end product). From what I understood, in 1 hour, close to 20mg of silver ions are stripped off at 5 mA current flow. So, in 1 liter of water I would have 20 ppm total silver content.

If that is correct, why is it that I can produce 320 ppm total silver content in 80 minutes at 15 mA using simultaneous heat reduction? Am I missing something? From the color it seems clear that a high ppm nano silver colloid is achieved, but according to Faraday the total silver content couldn't be more than 80 ppm? Are you referring to the TDS reading, including washing soda and glucose content?

Thank you for your amazing work at the forum, there is tons of knowledge bundled here!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on November 22, 2018, 06:40:36 PM
Yes, you are missing something.  80 minutes is for a 250ml batch, not 1 liter.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on November 22, 2018, 07:03:18 PM
Thanks for your quick answer, I am glad the math still works!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on November 25, 2018, 10:34:35 PM
I had some time today to try out kephra's 320 ppm protocol, translated to a 80 ppm citrate capped protocol in 1 litre of bi-distilled water, and everything went very smooth thanks to the excellent instructions and reference material available here. As I simply quadrupled the reagents from my 20ppm protocol I guess I arrived somewhere around 80ppm to 100ppm according to the colour samples. Production time 2 hours at an average 10 -12 mA.
Pictures attached of colour during production (30 mins), at completion (2 hours) and diluted 1 + 4 parts distilled water. I will report again whenever I have been able to run some tests or if anything unexpected happens in the next weeks.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on November 25, 2018, 10:42:32 PM
You would do better if you just used a copper wire for the cathode.  It will help you keep the voltage higher for a given current.
There is no need for a silver cathode.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on November 29, 2018, 07:05:39 PM
Yes, I agree I have overcomplicated my setup by using two silver electrodes, there is still a lot of room for improvement. Thanks for the pointers.

I would like to get a little deeper into the color and stability issue. It is an issue few people write about, other than saying their silver colloid is 100% stable, or has been stable over a period of a year... but in all cases it is likely that some change takes place in the colloid, right? I have produced colloids in the 15-20 ppm range over the past 6 months with several different protocols, and I have noticed that some seem totally stable, no visible color change over a 4-5 month period. I always keep a small sample in clear glass and daylight conditions.

Some samples show significant red shift after weeks and months. The 80 ppm colloid produced last week that I mentioned in a previous message also seems to show some red shift.

Red shift is a bit tricky, as I understand, because color can be related to particle size (red shift between 2.2 and 12.5 nm and blue shift above 12.5 nm and again a red shift over 20-30nm). Other research relates red shift to change in particle shape (yellow for spherical particles, green and blue for rods and triangles, etc.), with spherical particles being the smallest (largest surface area). I guess the color change, in any case, is related to increased agglomeration, due to influence of radiation (light, heat), as it happens over time (I don't suppose we could count with a spontaneous particle size reduction).

But what I was wondering about specifically, is about the influence of the amount of reducing and capping agent (I agree that an excess of glucose does not seem to have a bad influence, or even seems to have a positive influence on shelf life), and the time you leave the colloid cooking after cutting off the energy to the electrodes? What would be your explanation about red shift in this short period of time? Lack of capping? Overcooking? Excess agglomeration due to other processes?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on November 29, 2018, 07:56:18 PM
...But what I was wondering about specifically, is about the influence of the amount of reducing and capping agent (I agree that an excess of glucose does not seem to have a bad influence, or even seems to have a positive influence on shelf life), and the time you leave the colloid cooking after cutting off the energy to the electrodes? What would be your explanation about red shift in this short period of time? Lack of capping? Overcooking? Excess agglomeration due to other processes?
I have used the same amount of capping agent and electrolyte on all occasions. When you get something that works, it is a good idea to always be consistent. With reducing agents, I have found that glucose and fructose (particularly fructose) both tend to make the end result slightly turbid or cloudy.

However, Maltodextrin reduces the Colloidal Silver very slightly slower, and always produces a perfect result in my setup. I have never had a failure with Cinnamon-reduced Colloidal Silver, but this is regarded as a bit old-fashioned by most forum members, who tend to prefer gelatine capping/Karo reduction due to enhanced stability in the stomach.

The only thing that can happen after the current is shut off, is further (more complete) reduction. I particularly see this when I make heat-reduced Colloidal Silver.

My advice would be to be as consistent as possible. If you alter anything, only alter one thing at a time. The only instability I have ever seen is Ionic Silver Oxide tends to reduce, badly and variably, over time. Sometimes it remains clear, other times it drops out of solution as very large particles. I seldom make this any more. I would suggest that you may have some form of contamination.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on November 30, 2018, 01:58:31 AM
Quote
Red shift is a bit tricky, as I understand, because color can be related to particle size (red shift between 2.2 and 12.5 nm and blue shift above 12.5 nm and again a red shift over 20-30nm). Other research relates red shift to change in particle shape (yellow for spherical particles, green and blue for rods and triangles, etc.), with spherical particles being the smallest (largest surface area). I guess the color change, in any case, is related to increased agglomeration, due to influence of radiation (light, heat), as it happens over time (I don't suppose we could count with a spontaneous particle size reduction).
Color is caused by the surface plasmon resonance of the particles.  Smaller particles absorb shorter wavelengths of light leaving the complementary color which you see.  There is a complicated mathematical formula for the surface plasmon resonance.  Yes, it depends on particle shape.  Its very difficult to make shapes other than spheres.  A sphere has a single resonance, while a rod will have at least two.  When particles are small enough to absorb wavelengths below 400nm (ultraviolet), then the resultant color is clear.... no color at all.  See: https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1292.0
Colloidal silver tends to be yellow because the particles resonate with blue, leaving green and red which together make yellow.

There are two types of stabilizers.  One is ionic which stabilizes by the electrostatic repulsion between particles.  This type is not very strong, and is pH dependent.  The other kind is steric, and stabilizes by it size... this is what gelatin does.  Citrate is not a very strong stabilizer, compared to gelatin.  This is one area where size matters.  Citrate is a smaller molecule than glucose, so I believe it will be a less effective stabilizer than glucose.  Maltodextrin is a chain of glucose molecules, varying from 3 to 17 times bigger than a glucose molecule which makes it a better stabilizer than glucose, but still not as good as gelatin.

colloidal silver made with karo or glucose is stabilized by gluconic acid which results from reducing the silver particles.  Remember that for one thing to be reduced, another must be oxidized.  Oxidizing glucose to reduce silver results in gluconic acid (C6H12O7) which coats the silver nanoparticle. 

Spontaneous particle size reduction never happens. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on November 30, 2018, 03:01:56 PM
Quote
There are two types of stabilizers.  One is ionic which stabilizes by the electrostatic repulsion between particles.  This type is not very strong, and is pH dependent.  The other kind is steric, and stabilizes by it size... this is what gelatin does.  Citrate is not a very strong stabilizer, compared to gelatin.  This is one area where size matters.  Citrate is a smaller molecule than glucose, so I believe it will be a less effective stabilizer than glucose.  Maltodextrin is a chain of glucose molecules, varying from 3 to 17 times bigger than a glucose molecule which makes it a better stabilizer than glucose, but still not as good as gelatin.

Interesting details! I have to get my hands on some good animal gelatin to experiment. I have had good results with citrate, but gelatin seems to be the way to go.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on November 30, 2018, 03:08:31 PM
My advice would be to be as consistent as possible. If you alter anything, only alter one thing at a time. The only instability I have ever seen is Ionic Silver Oxide tends to reduce, badly and variably, over time. Sometimes it remains clear, other times it drops out of solution as very large particles. I seldom make this any more. I would suggest that you may have some form of contamination.

Thanks for your comments. I am working toward consistency, as you rightfully suggest, keeping detailed records of all productions, but as I am also interested in experimentation. I tend to vary some of the ingredients and amounts to see what happens. Contamination can be an issue, but I don't believe it is in this case, as the reduction in itself take place normally, and there is no turbidity and no precipitation at all. Other than some red shift, the color and aspect seems to be ok, different from earlier experiments where the color would go away or change to some grayish muddy color.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: drewcifer on November 30, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
Why is 20 ppm the concentration at which we determine the particle size based on the surface plasmon response? I've read numerous articles on this forum which describe this phenomenon and I get that we're seeing the compliment of the blue being absorbed (red + green) and perceiving it as yellow, which is fine. But what is special about "20 ppm" which is the concentration that we use when making inferences regarding particle size. There's something I'm not getting, 20 PPM seems like an arbitrary value.

When we make the more concentrated stuff, what different sort of reasoning are we using to explain the color change? Obviously, it seems to be related to the concentration, but how am I to understand this difference in color change? This color change seems to be completely unrelated to the plasmon response explanation.

Sorry, if I'm belaboring some point that's obvious to others, I just can't wrap my head around it, especially the "why we use 20 ppm as the baseline."
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on November 30, 2018, 05:51:58 PM
We use 20 ppm as a baseline because that is about the limit which can be made without any stabilizers.
Higher ppms simply make the color darker, plus the stabilizers like gelatin alter the color by their lensing effect and the fact that their mass slows down the vibrations of the surface electrons.

20 ppm is also the strength most people start out making, and thus know what it should look like.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on December 01, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
...
20 ppm is also the strength most people start out making, and thus know what it should look like.
Until one can replicate the easiest version, there is no point in trying anything more adventurous. I well remember my first efforts at making what I thought was Colloidal Silver, but which was in fact Ionic Silver Oxide. I had no idea what I was actually making, or what the strength was.

I thank Kephra for rectifying my knowledge in both respects.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on December 21, 2018, 01:00:26 PM
Why is 20 ppm the concentration at which we determine the particle size based on the surface plasmon response? I've read numerous articles on this forum which describe this phenomenon and I get that we're seeing the compliment of the blue being absorbed (red + green) and perceiving it as yellow, which is fine. But what is special about "20 ppm" which is the concentration that we use when making inferences regarding particle size. There's something I'm not getting, 20 PPM seems like an arbitrary value.

When we make the more concentrated stuff, what different sort of reasoning are we using to explain the color change? Obviously, it seems to be related to the concentration, but how am I to understand this difference in color change? This color change seems to be completely unrelated to the plasmon response explanation.

I have been struggling with the color issue, too. What may be interesting is to look into the lab analysis method called photo espectography UV-VIS (visual and UV range). This is an optical method used to analyze colloids, and the graphs produced will tell you two things right away: the most absorbed range(s) of wavelengths and the absorption rate. Absorbed wavelength translates to color perceived, and higher absorption rates indicate higher ppm and darker tints. This lab test is available at most university labs (here in Brazil) at a low cost, and it is something that is in my planning.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on December 21, 2018, 01:09:03 PM
Yes, gelatin makes the color darker.

Several people in Brazil market heat reduced (close to boiling point, constant current control at 5 mA) nano silver (no electrolyte, no reduction agent) as "the true golden silver colloid". I have asked and they claim it is stable over time. What I noted in videos and pictures is that the colloid gets the typical amber color, and after 1 hour cooking it should be around 20 ppm. I haven't found any comments on this process, though you may have addressed this in another post, but I was wondering how heat reduced and heat + glucose reduced compare, and why the 20 ppm heat reduced colloid does not have the yellow color that we would expect from a 20 ppm silver reduced with glucose?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on December 21, 2018, 01:16:49 PM
Quote
but I was wondering how heat reduced and heat + glucose reduced compare, and why the 20 ppm heat reduced colloid does not have the yellow color that we would expect from a 20 ppm silver reduced with glucose?

Silver won't fully reduce with heat only.  The reason is that the actual reducing is done by the hydrogen gas which evolves from the cathode during electrolysis.  The problem is, that some of the hydrogen is lost from the water, so there is insufficient hydrogen to reduce all of the silver with some ionic silver remaining.  Glucose provides complete reduction.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on December 22, 2018, 12:26:22 PM
Quote
but I was wondering how heat reduced and heat + glucose reduced compare, and why the 20 ppm heat reduced colloid does not have the yellow color that we would expect from a 20 ppm silver reduced with glucose?

Silver won't fully reduce with heat only.  The reason is that the actual reducing is done by the hydrogen gas which evolves from the cathode during electrolysis.  The problem is, that some of the hydrogen is lost from the water, so there is insufficient hydrogen to reduce all of the silver with some ionic silver remaining.  Glucose provides complete reduction.

Thanks for the explanation, I had suspected that the electrolysis of the water was a determining factor, and I would also be worried about other by-products. I suppose I will be able to find those in the many reaction formulas you have provided, I will do some more study, as their reaction is always that they don't want, or don't need to add any chemicals to the process.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on December 23, 2018, 06:00:28 PM
Quote
as their reaction is always that they don't want, or don't need to add any chemicals to the process.
Thats a silly concern.  Glucose, maltodextrin etc are all just foods, and they make a superior product.
To worry about them as contaminants is especially silly since the colloidal silver will be totally contaminated by saliva, stomach acid, enzymes, etc, as soon as it is ingested.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on December 25, 2018, 09:20:33 PM
Quote
as their reaction is always that they don't want, or don't need to add any chemicals to the process.
Thats a silly concern.  Glucose, maltodextrin etc are all just foods, and they make a superior product.
To worry about them as contaminants is especially silly since the colloidal silver will be totally contaminated by saliva, stomach acid, enzymes, etc, as soon as it is ingested.

Totally agreed, but so far I haven't been able to convince them of the contrary...
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on December 27, 2018, 07:09:09 PM
Totally agreed, but so far I haven't been able to convince them of the contrary...
It was ever thus. You cannot make Colloidal Silver without wanting to pass on the concept to others, but when you do, they will immediately start to tell you where you are wrong, or that your product is more likely to cause harm than a commercial antibiotic (!) or that you don't know what you are doing, all without any evidence or knowledge whatsoever.

I have perfected the art of keeping a straight face when I am being spoken to by idiots. It is quite extraordinary how a nurse assumes that her/his qualification (as a nurse) also qualifies them to be an expert in biochemistry or nanoparticle manufacture. I have even been told, by a nurse, that I was wrong when I said that everyone sees the world upside-down, and that the brain performs the adjustment to perceive that "up" is actually "up". Extraordinary.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: nix2p on February 08, 2019, 05:40:42 PM
@ Timothy:

Добро пожаловать на форум CG & colloidal silver.
Все материалы на английском языке. Есть ценная информация о производстве коллоидного золота и коллоидного серебра для тех из нас, кто любит заниматься этим.
Лучшая часть этого - то, что процесс был задокументирован через этот форум. «Как будто у нас есть лучший друг, ведущий нас за руку». Вопрос, на который нужно ответить, это «найти способ» найти его »!

За ваше здоровье!

шухер

Постскриптум (Где Кефра? Кеп, говорите по-русски?)
Я учил французский и русский в школе 4 года, и я немного русти ... Я думаю, что это больше похоже на коррозию; сейчас!!!


TRANSLATION:
==========
Welcome to CG & colloidal silver forum.
All material is in English. There is valuable information on the production of colloidal gold and colloidal silver, for those of us that like to pursue that avenue.
Best part of it is that process has been documented throughout this forum. "It is like we are having best friend leading us by the hand". The question one needs to answer is to 'find a way' to acquire it"!

To your health!

Nix

P.S. (Where is Kephra? Kep, govorite po Ruski?)
- I took French and Russian in school for 4 years and I'm little bit rusty... I think it's more like covered with corrosion; now!!!

To your health :o
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on February 08, 2019, 05:46:28 PM
I don't talk to spammers and bots.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on February 17, 2019, 01:35:02 PM
Let me translate Ukranian spammer for you.
Quote
Car wash dry for 3 minutes! http://sunnymlm.ru/ecology01.htm LUXE auto toweling of the latest microfiber. Production Japan. Absorbs any dirt, oil, etc. Prices Best and the possibility of earning. And Other microfiber products +79161414123 Skype: vsunnymlm




Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Hoyrat on March 04, 2019, 11:53:00 PM
Hello to everyone. A very useful forum. Thanks for the shared information. Product in the picture:
450 ml DW (PH 7.1)
Electrolyte: 50 ml clear ionic silver (TDS measured 18 ppm)
Power: 15 DCV
Current: 0.5 mA (500 microA)
No heating: 22 C room temperature.
Electrode: 15 cm silver bar.
The anode is in the water. The cathode was immersed in 1 cm.
Mixer: None
Reducer: None
Duration: 180 minutes
No metallic taste. It's not burning like ionic silver.
No residue.
TDS: 14 ppm.
What did I do now?
Is this a colloidal silver?
Or something else?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on March 05, 2019, 12:00:06 AM
Since you did not follow the techniques here, it is impossible to say what you made.
Also a TDS meter is useless in determining the ppm of colloidal silver.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Hoyrat on March 05, 2019, 12:22:52 AM
Thanks wgpeters for your reply. I'm practicing your techniques. I started to make 1 liter once. I added 20 drops of sodium carbonate as the electrolyte. 10 DCW, 3 mA. I did it for 100 minutes at room temperature. I cleaned the electrodes. The same color occurred. Even though I don't use a reductant.
There's something I don't understand.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: kephra on March 05, 2019, 01:03:27 AM
Check your water quality.
Also, fluorescent lighting and sunlight will reduce silver.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Neofizz on March 15, 2019, 10:58:10 AM
Even though I don't use a reductant.

The reducer has at least mild stabilizing properties that keeps the colloids from clumping together into larger useless particles.

If I don't add the reducer it changes on me as well but keeps getting darker and darker until it looks kind of brownish. This can take from days to weeks for me.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on September 17, 2019, 07:48:37 PM
As most people here I have become used to evaluate the process, presence of AgNP, particle size and concentration based on colloid color. As soon as the colloid shows a strong yellow color we know that we have about 20-25 ppm concentration (cross-referencing mA and time), caused by the Plasmon effect.
I have reduced and capped nano silver using many different protocols, some with application of heat, some at or slightly above room temperature.
When I do a citrate reduction/capping, that has to be done at 70-80°C, I generally heat up the water, add the sodium carbonate, glucose (to ensure full reduction) and citrate, and then insert the silver electrode. I noted that when I wait a minute or ten, the water will color bright yellow even if no silver is present. As the Maillard reaction should not take place at such low temperatures, I was puzzled, but now I learned that sodium carbonate will drastically lower the temperatures for the Maillard reaction to happen.
So my question is: When heat reducing nano silver, how can I be sure that it is indeed reducing, or am I just looking at a yellow solution because of the Maillard reaction?
Also: If it is a combination of the Maillard reaction and Plasmon effect, how can I evaluate yellow/amber colors with respect to concentration? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on September 17, 2019, 11:34:39 PM
I have tested this with sodium carbonate and corn syrup (glucose+maltose), heated to 200F and no color change occurs.  If you are getting color change its not from the Maillard reaction.  The Maillard reaction occurs between amino acids and reducing sugars.  So if no amino acids are present, its not the Maillard reaction.

Heat reduction uses no other reducing agents.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: FlyingDutchman on September 18, 2019, 09:26:40 PM
I have tested this with sodium carbonate and corn syrup (glucose+maltose), heated to 200F and no color change occurs.  If you are getting color change its not from the Maillard reaction.  The Maillard reaction occurs between amino acids and reducing sugars.  So if no amino acids are present, its not the Maillard reaction.

Heat reduction uses no other reducing agents.

OK, thanks, I will investigate further. The color was too strong to be caused by just contamination or silver residue on the beaker.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Turbidaceous on February 08, 2020, 09:00:40 PM
Were the A and B bottles in the initial post created using Sodium Carbonate during creation? I did not use any in my current first attempts. I added some golden syrup but it's still hazy clear colour. I have ordered some Sodium Carbonate to add to it and I am hoping it should then reduce to the yellow colour. If I were to microwave what I have, would that reduce it?

Also, I had a glass I was dumping bits of water into from cleaning my bottles and I think I may have dumped other stuff in there. I put some of my silver into a glass and added some borax to see if it would raise the PH and go yellow... nothing happened so I got annoyed and dumped it into the waste water glass and low and behold it turned yellow like the pee you have after a while after having an energy drink... So no clue what was in there or what conditions were but I know (I think) that what I have will work if I can just get the ph sorted out even though I did not use any sodium carbonate during it's electrical creation?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on February 10, 2020, 09:04:24 PM
Follow the instructions precisely.

We have been testing these methods for many years. If you follow the instructions, you will get the correct results and have very few failures. Use small volumes of Distilled Water to begin with.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Turbidaceous on February 12, 2020, 09:41:39 PM
Thanks. I think I am getting decent results as I progress and tweak things more in line with existing articles here. Initially I started out with an eBay simple 2 lead set up. As time goes on, I upgrade my gear and knowledge.

Is there specifically a guide on making higher ppm concentrated batches? I like this 20ppm deal but I think it might be nice to make a more potent ppm one for storage and dilution, or to make taking larger loading doses while sick more convenient than consuming larger quantities of 20ppm perhaps. I have read that 20ppm is pretty much the maximum without special steps or capping or what ever but I don't recall seeing a guide specifically about making high ppm strengths. Do you know of an article which covers this?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: dennis51 on March 22, 2020, 06:23:40 PM
Thanks for showing the color samples. I've recently started making my own using corn syrup as a reducing agent and am lead to believe I'm producing a colloidal silver in the 40 ppm range.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: imcool on April 05, 2020, 03:56:54 PM
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=5042.msg41694#msg41694

(https://i.imgur.com/4xFIeDS.jpg)

does this look Ok after corn syrup reduction?  please advise.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on April 05, 2020, 05:25:56 PM
We can't tell without the amperage and time.

You MUST read the articles, or at least this thread below. Your Colloidal Silver is nowhere near 40 ppm.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4965.0 (https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4965.0)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: imcool on April 08, 2020, 11:09:01 PM
Thanks. I think I am getting decent results as I progress and tweak things more in line with existing articles here. Initially I started out with an eBay simple 2 lead set up. As time goes on, I upgrade my gear and knowledge.

Is there specifically a guide on making higher ppm concentrated batches? I like this 20ppm deal but I think it might be nice to make a more potent ppm one for storage and dilution, or to make taking larger loading doses while sick more convenient than consuming larger quantities of 20ppm perhaps. I have read that 20ppm is pretty much the maximum without special steps or capping or what ever but I don't recall seeing a guide specifically about making high ppm strengths. Do you know of an article which covers this?
Bump!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: imcool on April 08, 2020, 11:10:18 PM
I see the 'smoke' coming off the cathode (not the anode) when I do my runs. I figured it was gas being produced. When making 320 PPM the gelatin seems to make them (the gas bubbles) linger and get caught up in the vortex. The result is that for about the first half of my 320 PPM runs there is foam on top and swirling around in the vortex.
can you elaborate  more about 320ppm procedure, whats  the main difference in process between both while making 20ppm and 320ppm, many people are wondering including myself.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Neofizz on April 09, 2020, 01:35:08 AM
I see the 'smoke' coming off the cathode (not the anode) when I do my runs. I figured it was gas being produced. When making 320 PPM the gelatin seems to make them (the gas bubbles) linger and get caught up in the vortex. The result is that for about the first half of my 320 PPM runs there is foam on top and swirling around in the vortex.
can you elaborate  more about 320ppm procedure, whats  the main difference in process between both while making 20ppm and 320ppm, many people are wondering including myself.

There are a couple differences between making 20 ppm and 320 ppm Colloidal Silver.

I make 20 ppm at room temperature while 320 ppm is done 'hot'. 100C is recommended but my little stirring hotplate struggles with that so I've settled on 80C.
Hot gives more time for reduction to occur because you're never near the solubility limit of the silver oxide.

For 20 ppm the reducer is added after electrolysis is complete. For 320 ppm the reducer is added before electrolysis is started.

If you are gel-capping the 20 ppm the gelatin is added after reduction is complete. With 320 ppm the gelatin is added first.

I just finished making a fresh liter/quart of 320 ppm Colloidal Silver. Here are the steps I took:

1. Measure 500 mls of distilled water and add it to my 2 liter beaker and set it on the stirring hotplate (heat on, stirrer off).
2. Measure 500 mls of distilled water and put in microwave set to 4 minutes on high.
3. Add the gelatin to the beaker, lightly sprinkling it in and letting it spread out. Don't make lumps. Let it sit and 'bloom' while the other water is heating. When the bloomed gelatin is sinking and to keep it from sticking to the bottom I turn the stirrer on low.
4. Get boiling water from the microwave, turn stir on high and dump it in. The gelatin will almost instantly dissolve.
5. While waiting for gelatin to finish dissolving I add the 1 ml of 1 M electrolyte and a couple big drops of light corn syrup straight out of the bottle. The corn syrup is the reducer added in excess for efficient reduction. After waiting a minute for it to dissolve I can start.
6. I get the electrodes roughly set up before starting up the SilverTron.
7. Start the SilverTron and set the anode at about half an inch depth (the one ounce silver bar).
8. The copper cathode is slowly lowered in. The lower it goes the higher the voltage climbs. I go with about 20 volts. If I go too low the amperage will start to drop. I'm running with 15 milliamps.
9. When the run is done (5.5 hours later) I immediately pull out the electrodes and turn off the heat but leave it stirring for half an hour.
10. After that I leave it to cool (with the electrode holder/lid on) before filtering, bottling and volume correcting.

There are variations on how this is done. Part of the reason for fire cleaning the anode every 20-60 minutes is that as the 'gunk' builds up the voltage goes down. Some of the 'gunk' also can fall off when my lead footed brother walks by. Might give a bit more Tyndall effect but I'm not so worried about that. If I'm not cleaning during the whole run I'm down about 5 volts by the end and is part of the reason I set it to 20 volts. I can keep adjusting the cathode to keep the voltage up as well. If you can do the frequent fire cleaning you should. I'm just not in a position to do that right now so I've modified to compensate somewhat.

YMMV
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: gold purifier on April 10, 2020, 04:11:39 AM
When I get a chance, I will make a serial dilution of 320 ppm gelatin capped.  I managed to find 5 identical bottles so I can do 320 160 80 40 and 20 ppm.
Mr. Kephra, I am from Brazil and, I produce my colloidal silver, thanks to what I have learned here on the forum however, there are many things that I cannot understand like process for hig ppm so I would like to ask for your help, to get, formulas for higher ppm like, 100 , 200 and higher. I would like to count on your help. thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: imcool on April 10, 2020, 06:27:48 PM
When I get a chance, I will make a serial dilution of 320 ppm gelatin capped.  I managed to find 5 identical bottles so I can do 320 160 80 40 and 20 ppm.
Mr. Kephra, I am from Brazil and, I produce my colloidal silver, thanks to what I have learned here on the forum however, there are many things that I cannot understand like process for hig ppm so I would like to ask for your help, to get, formulas for higher ppm like, 100 , 200 and higher. I would like to count on your help. thanks in advance.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3713.msg41886#msg41886
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: imcool on April 10, 2020, 06:56:40 PM
I see the 'smoke' coming off the cathode (not the anode) when I do my runs. I figured it was gas being produced. When making 320 PPM the gelatin seems to make them (the gas bubbles) linger and get caught up in the vortex. The result is that for about the first half of my 320 PPM runs there is foam on top and swirling around in the vortex.
can you elaborate  more about 320ppm procedure, whats  the main difference in process between both while making 20ppm and 320ppm, many people are wondering including myself.

There are a couple differences between making 20 ppm and 320 ppm colloidal silver.

I make 20 ppm at room temperature while 320 ppm is done 'hot'. 100C is recommended but my little stirring hotplate struggles with that so I've settled on 80C.
Hot gives more time for reduction to occur because you're never near the solubility limit of the silver oxide.

For 20 ppm the reducer is added after electrolysis is complete. For 320 ppm the reducer is added before electrolysis is started.

If you are gel-capping the 20 ppm the gelatin is added after reduction is complete. With 320 ppm the gelatin is added first.

I just finished making a fresh liter/quart of 320 ppm colloidal silver. Here are the steps I took:

1. Measure 500 mls of distilled water and add it to my 2 liter beaker and set it on the stirring hotplate (heat on, stirrer off).
2. Measure 500 mls of distilled water and put in microwave set to 4 minutes on high.
3. Add the gelatin to the beaker, lightly sprinkling it in and letting it spread out. Don't make lumps. Let it sit and 'bloom' while the other water is heating. When the bloomed gelatin is sinking and to keep it from sticking to the bottom I turn the stirrer on low.
4. Get boiling water from the microwave, turn stir on high and dump it in. The gelatin will almost instantly dissolve.
5. While waiting for gelatin to finish dissolving I add the 1 ml of 1 M electrolyte and a couple big drops of light corn syrup straight out of the bottle. The corn syrup is the reducer added in excess for efficient reduction. After waiting a minute for it to dissolve I can start.
6. I get the electrodes roughly set up before starting up the SilverTron.
7. Start the SilverTron and set the anode at about half an inch depth (the one ounce silver bar).
8. The copper cathode is slowly lowered in. The lower it goes the higher the voltage climbs. I go with about 20 volts. If I go too low the amperage will start to drop. I'm running with 15 milliamps.
9. When the run is done (5.5 hours later) I immediately pull out the electrodes and turn off the heat but leave it stirring for half an hour.
10. After that I leave it to cool (with the electrode holder/lid on) before filtering, bottling and volume correcting.

There are variations on how this is done. Part of the reason for fire cleaning the anode every 20-60 minutes is that as the 'gunk' builds up the voltage goes down. Some of the 'gunk' also can fall off when my lead footed brother walks by. Might give a bit more Tyndall effect but I'm not so worried about that. If I'm not cleaning during the whole run I'm down about 5 volts by the end and is part of the reason I set it to 20 volts. I can keep adjusting the cathode to keep the voltage up as well. If you can do the frequent fire cleaning you should. I'm just not in a position to do that right now so I've modified to compensate somewhat.

YMMV

thanks a ton
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on April 15, 2020, 06:15:32 PM
Yes. Thanks for that description.  That was one of the final pieces I was not clear on, but now am.
Now I've got to get clear on the PSU's CC vs CV setting.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Turbidaceous on April 17, 2020, 05:09:08 PM
When I make my 1L of 100ppm I always add 1.5 grams of malto instead of the 1.4 recommended by the formula. I just made some 50ppm and used 0.72g of malto which is only 0.2 of a gram more than recommended. When I dilute my 100ppm down to 50ppm it has a bit of an orange tint, whereas the 50ppm I made earlier is just a richer version of yellow, not really orange but just a more richer yellow, like golden colour. I can tell in the full size beaker that the 50ppm I made is a bit darker than 20ppm but when I put 10ml in a sample 50ml beaker and 10ml of the diluted 100ppm in another 50ml beaker, the 10ml of 100ppm which is diluted to 50ppm looks more orangy/gold than the raw 50ppm I made as-is.

I mean the colours are not as rich since the volume of the sample is less. But comparing apples to apples, both small samples are not the same, the diluted 100ppm looks a tad more orange whereas the 50ppm raw is not and looks more like the colour a full kilner jar of 20ppm looks.

Does this make sense what I am trying to convey?

I am heating up my raw 50ppm in case perhaps it had not fully reduced but I doubt that is the case since I left it for a good 40 minutes before sorting it out.

When I make 20ppm raw, it looks weaker in colour when in my beaker I made it in, but when I transfer it to a wider kilner jar, it looks more golden and like everyone else shows pictures of 20ppm, so I know the thinner the vessel, the weaker and less punchy the colour seems to be. But again, comparing a sample of each, there's a clear difference, though not vast difference.

Can someone help me understand what is going on? (I tried to take a picture but it does not show properly like the eye sees.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on April 17, 2020, 07:12:58 PM
Color indicates particle size.  Orange indicates larger particles or a mixture with larger particles.
And don't obsess with formulas for calculating maltodextrin.  Malto is not a standardized product, and the required amount depends on how the malto was made.  Maltodextrin is a chain of glucose molecules consisting of 3 to 17 glucose molecules in the chain.  Since you don't know the composition of the maltodextrin, you cannot accurately calculate the required amount.

Its best to use too much rather than too little.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Turbidaceous on April 17, 2020, 07:33:24 PM
What would lead to slightly larger particle size? I use the same method every time. Usually when I dilute to 20ppm it looks perfect every time I have done that comparison. But for some reason making 50ppm directly compared with half watered down 100ppm do not look identical. Very weird. I did heat it up again in case it was not fully reduced but it did not really make any change I could notice.

Might I have screwed up the dilution by a small amount? I mean yes colour is particle size, but same particle size but more ppm leads to darker and darker shades, naturally my 100ppm is a tea/red colour when I look through it outside into the sun-lit backyard. Then when I dilute to 20ppm it looks the same as when I make 20ppm directly. So perhaps either I made the 100ppm batch slightly more strong by a few ppm and maybe eye-balled my half and half not accurately enough? If I am mixing 500ml of Zero water (tested @ 000) with 500ml of 100ppm only by eyeballing by the height of the bottle, would that level of margin of error (visually looks half and half) be enough to make a detectable colour-shade difference?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Turbidaceous on April 18, 2020, 05:05:13 PM
I just made a fresh batch of 100ppm and diluted half and half with more pure water and compared 20ml of each final side by side. My 50ppm I made the other day is lighter in colour still. I must have done something wrong and miscalculated something some how somewhere. I thought it looked a bit pale but I put 50ppm in my spreadsheet and left it going for the allotted time. I just must have done something wrong with that batch. Though what, I cannot figure out.

Which looks like 50ppm? The right one is half and half diluted 100ppm to get to 50 and the left one is actual (supposed to be...) 50ppm as I made it.

(https://i.imgur.com/1L78b2A.jpg)

Left one 48 minutes @ 15.7ma (60+ degree C temp) 0.7g malto 20 drops of electrolyte.

Right one started off at 1 hour 36 minutes @ 15.7ma (60+ degree C temp) 1.52g malto and 20 drops of electrolyte and then left for a few mins after completion and diluting 10ml of it with 10ml pure water.

To my mind they should be identical colour. 50ppm vs diluted 100ppm. Yet they are not the same colour. I would appreciate some possible ideas of what happened and which colour looks right for 50ppm?

Could it be that my malto needed more than the recommended by the formula? I always add an extra 100+mg than recommended when I do my 100ppm but for my 50ppm I kept it to the letter of the formula. Would it have reduced more or something and gone darker? Does that mean my 50ppm as-made is not fully reduced? I am trying to come up with reasons why it would be lighter than every other batch of 100ppm I have diluted as a test, they all come out like the one on the right, a bit orange.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: cfnisbet on April 18, 2020, 06:38:41 PM
If the timing was right, in theory they should be the same colour. If I was forced to guess, I would say the one on the right is closer to my rendering of 50 ppm. Both good batches though.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on April 20, 2020, 08:05:52 PM
 :P If I was to guess, the one on the right means you need to hydrate more with clean distilled water, to get to the lighter shade on the left.
btw, why are you displaying your bottles of urine out your front windows to your neighbors? ;D
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on May 06, 2020, 08:33:11 PM
I'm perplexed.  The 2nd time I ran and got CC to display on my PSU the batch turned out great.  See first picture.  The 3rd time I ran and got everything the same but the cathode I changed from silver to copper, and it came out almost clear.
Both runs were 60 mins long
Both runs had the same silver anode (cleaned with blue fire)
Good run had 17.5 volts second clear batch had 14.5 volts
Both runs had 5 mA +/- 0.5 through the run
Both runs had 20 drops of the same electrolyte
Both runs had 4 drops of Karo 1:1

But the last run did not seem to work right.  The anode was blackish when complete, which happened on both runs
and the copper cathode did seem to have some silver plating on it.

Both were stirred without heat

Room temp on last batch may have been at 70 F
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 06, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
To trouble shoot, add 20 more drops of sodium carbonate to see if it reduces.  If it does, you didn't have enough.

If that still doesn't reduce the silver, add 20 drops of Karo solution. 

Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on May 06, 2020, 10:59:40 PM
To trouble shoot, add 20 more drops of sodium carbonate to see if it reduces.  If it does, you didn't have enough.

If that still doesn't reduce the silver, add 20 drops of Karo solution.
So I don't have to power it back up with the PSU, or heat?  Just stir and wait for a period of time?
And if that doesn't work then I've got some plant water.

Looks like that did not work. So now I must puzzle out why by making more batches. Maybe the lower voltage just means I need to increase the time?  I might have 10ppm solution which is why it is very pale yellow at best.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 07, 2020, 03:41:29 PM
Quote
Looks like that did not work. So now I must puzzle out why by making more batches. Maybe the lower voltage just means I need to increase the time?  I might have 10ppm solution which is why it is very pale yellow at best.
NO, time is dependent on current, not voltage.  You really should review the Articles again.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on May 07, 2020, 05:12:27 PM
Duh.  You were right. I put in those extra drops and felt  :'( that nothing happened, but when I came back to the office this morning and was getting ready to water my plants, I noticed that the last batch had turned the exact shade of yellow it should have.  Go figure.  Thanks Bill.  It is that constant current thing (mA) which is more critical.  The volts will just vary according to the time and silver in solution  :-[.  The constant current idea is how you worked out the time table for ppm with all the other variables, like Anode surface size.  Funny how sensitive the formula is.  For example after you told me I could add more drops of the electrolyte and reducer to see if that had an effect.  This next batch I added the 20 drops (for 20ppm) like before and noted the voltage display and the Ammeter display and then just added one more drop.  I watched the voltage now drop a few points! Wow.  You really did dial in this formula down tight.
Fascinating stuff this Electro-Chemistry.  Now I regret never taking those classes in school and college!  :(

Thanks again for your guidance and help.  I like being taught to fish.  Unfortunately, as you can most likely tell, it takes me much longer to "learn" what I've been taught. :-[
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 07, 2020, 06:17:02 PM
Great!  Keep at it, and you will get it all straightened out.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 07, 2020, 06:46:35 PM
Made my first batch of 40 ppm today and the results look good, I had a couple of issues but I don't think it spoiled anything in a significant way.  First my power supply for the homemade stirrer failed to had to do this manually and secondly on my second fire cleaning of the anode I performed this in situ with a gas pen torch but immediately put the hot anode back in the solution, this produced a violent super heating of the solution at the insertion point and some lumps of what I presume was silver oxide and sugars were immediately formed, hence the final filter when decanting.

1L Medical Grade Distilled Water
1ml 1 mole sodium carbonate solution
0.6g Maltodextrin
1 Ozt .9999 Ag Canadian Maple Leaf Anode / Copper Wire Cathode
Hotplate Temperature 175F/79C
Current 15ma +/- 2%
Current Duration 40 minutes
Solution Kept Hot for 10 minutes after current cut to aid reduction/capping
Manual stirring as needed
Fire cleaned anode at 20 minute intervals
Decanted and strained through cotton wool.

40ppm Left and 20ppm Right for comparison.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 07, 2020, 06:52:49 PM
Perfect!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 07, 2020, 07:04:55 PM
High praise indeed. Thank you Sir!
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 07, 2020, 11:41:04 PM
Duh.  You were right. I put in those extra drops and felt  :'( that nothing happened, but when I came back to the office this morning and was getting ready to water my plants, I noticed that the last batch had turned the exact shade of yellow it should have.  Go figure.  Thanks Bill.  It is that constant current thing (mA) which is more critical.  The volts will just vary according to the time and silver in solution  :-[.  The constant current idea is how you worked out the time table for ppm with all the other variables, like Anode surface size.  Funny how sensitive the formula is.  For example after you told me I could add more drops of the electrolyte and reducer to see if that had an effect.  This next batch I added the 20 drops (for 20ppm) like before and noted the voltage display and the Ammeter display and then just added one more drop.  I watched the voltage now drop a few points! Wow.  You really did dial in this formula down tight.
Fascinating stuff this Electro-Chemistry.  Now I regret never taking those classes in school and college!  :(

Thanks again for your guidance and help.  I like being taught to fish.  Unfortunately, as you can most likely tell, it takes me much longer to "learn" what I've been taught. :-[
Glad to help.  Seeing is believing is it not?

Everything is a compromise, a dance between elements.
For instance, the width of the Space Shuttle was restricted by the fact that it had to go through railway tunnels and over roads.  The tunnels and road widths were dictated by the width of Roman carriages thousands of years ago.  The width of Roman carriages was determined by the width required for two side by side horses.  So you see, the Space Shuttle was in part designed by a pair of horses asses.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on May 08, 2020, 12:37:24 AM
 :) :D :D ;D  Thanks. I feel so much better knowing that everything is connected.
Funny to say it the way you did, but it is amazing how many things in this forest
we call modern life, is just like that.  We long ago stop questioning these basic idea's.

As an Architect, I'm always battling that long time live perspective with my clients
short lived requirements that seem like they really need to be a certain way.
I try real hard to keep my mouth shut, so as not to risk waking them up.  8)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Bobby on May 09, 2020, 11:26:32 AM
Lololol...hahaha! 

   That was a just to funny Kephra.  Glad to see that since of humor again!

Bobby
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 10, 2020, 12:49:36 PM
Managed to make 80ppm today same process as the 40ppm in my earlier post except 1.2g of Maltodextrin and 80 minutes current time.  At first I thought it should be darker but looking at the other samples it seems about right. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 13, 2020, 05:27:57 PM
Not sure if I did this quite right for 320ppm as I used maltodextrin instead of Karo or is it now double capped?  I beefed up my anode so it could be fully submerged and have a larger surface area then a steady 20ma for 4 hours.  The annode did not smoke or blacken it just got a dirty light brown colour but I fire cleaned it regardless.  I have yet to decant and strain but the colour is like Guinness (stout beer) with no turbidity whatsoever.  Colour samples below with sample diluted to 20ppm.

1L Medical Grade Distilled Water
1ml 1 mole sodium carbonate solution
4.8g Maltodextrin
4g Gelatin
1 Ozt .9999 Ag Canadian Maple Leaf Anode / Copper Wire Cathode
Hotplate Temperature 175F/79C
Current 20ma +/- 2%
Current Duration 240 minutes
Solution Kept Hot for 10 minutes after current cut to aid reduction/capping
Manual stirring every 20 minutes
Fire cleaned anode at 40 minute intervals

I diluted my 40ppm Maltodextrin Uncapped for comparison, the 320ppm dilute seems very dark.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 13, 2020, 05:32:56 PM
Looks like you did well.  Gelatin makes the Colloidal Silver look darker because of its own color and lensing effect.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 13, 2020, 06:15:12 PM
Phew!  I feel like I passed my final exam when in reality I just followed your excellent instructions which just work.  Next stage gels and ointments.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on May 13, 2020, 11:24:52 PM
Phew!  I feel like I passed my final exam when in reality I just followed your excellent instructions which just work.  Next stage gels and ointments.
Great job!  Just to get clarification; is there any reason not to use high strength, undiluted, 320ppm for gel's and ointments?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: wgpeters on May 13, 2020, 11:28:43 PM
I can't think of any.  It certainly wouldn't do any harm.  Gel would be better though because gels are water based whereas ointments are oil based.  Water in some form is necessary to liberate ions.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Neofizz on May 14, 2020, 02:55:15 AM
Phew!  I feel like I passed my final exam when in reality I just followed your excellent instructions which just work.  Next stage gels and ointments.
Great job!  Just to get clarification; is there any reason not to use high strength, undiluted, 320ppm for gel's and ointments?

I did Stagno's cream recipe using 320 ppm gelcapped Colloidal Silver and didn't like it as it stained everything it touched. At the same time, Stagno says he only used 20 ppm to make his and is famous in his part of the world for how much he's helped his community with it. Every cream I've made since then was based on 20 ppm Colloidal Silver or ionic silver and it works nicely.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 14, 2020, 03:52:17 AM
Great job!  Just to get clarification; is there any reason not to use high strength, undiluted, 320ppm for gel's and ointments?

Thank you.  Good question I have no idea what the effective concentration would be for a cream or gel, did you see the psoriasis progress photos I posted on your dosage topic? https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=5120.0  That was just applied with a Colloidal Silver 10ppm soaked tissue so I guess what we want to know is how much if at all does the delivery medium interfere with the ppm vs the benefits of absorption and contact time that the medium offers. 
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Neofizz on May 14, 2020, 06:56:05 AM
The number of colloidal silver particles in a gram of the cream is beyond a humans ability to imagine. People recently coming into the forum need to understand that they don't need to multiply the tried and true values by 2, 4, 8, etc.

If you want to be a scientist with it then by all means, experiment. You have free will, can do what you want, and are responsible for your own actions, as with all.

It doesn't really matter what the medium is just as long as Colloidal Silver stays in tact and gets where it needs to be.

Using Colloidal Silver at higher concentrations than 20 ppm is really just a waste of silver and isn't really needed. 2-4 ppm kills germs. 20 ppm is already a 5x-10x overkill.

I read EVERYTHING in the forum before I tried ANY experimentation beyond what is recommended here.

Rubbing with a damp tissue I don't imagine would do as much as a bandage that is always wet with Colloidal Silver.

Sorry if this seems a but scattered... it's late.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: RedDogJT on May 18, 2020, 12:19:12 AM
I know that 20ppm mixed with Aloe Vera gel worked wonders on my Shingles Rash.
Along with drinking Gel capped 20ppm and high dose Vitamin C, then applying the gel
3 times per day, the rash never got to the painful blister stage.  It is down to about 4%
visible now.

I've even been using the gel on my funky big toe nails to kill the fungus issue.  I work
it in with an old toothbrush and it is working great.  I'd take pictures, but who the hell
wants to see that!?
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: bcboy on May 18, 2020, 02:44:07 AM
[/color]
I know that 20ppm mixed with Aloe Vera gel worked wonders on my Shingles Rash.
Along with drinking Gel capped 20ppm and high dose Vitamin C, then applying the gel
3 times per day, the rash never got to the painful blister stage.  It is down to about 4%
visible now.

I've even been using the gel on my funky big toe nails to kill the fungus issue.  I work
it in with an old toothbrush and it is working great.  I'd take pictures, but who the hell
wants to see that!?
Do you have before and after? Yes I'm interested, please post them up.  ;)
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: PhiPhi on May 25, 2020, 01:03:19 PM
I've even been using the gel on my funky big toe nails to kill the fungus issue.  I work
it in with an old toothbrush and it is working great.  I'd take pictures, but who the hell
wants to see that!?

Me! Me! Me!  I think before and after photos with treatment dosage, duration, etc., is an important record which we should preserve and learn from.

On the question of gels here's the ingredients for a very famous gel, do any of the chemists among us see any issue in using it with maltodextrin and/or gel capped AgNP?

KY Jelly is water-soluble and its main lubricating ingredients are glycerol (glycerine) and hydroxyethylcellulose. Antiseptic and preservative additives include chlorhexidine gluconate, gluconolactone, methylparaben, and sodium hydroxide. Ingredients may vary slightly between the different KY products. KY Jelly does not contain any added colors or perfumes.
Title: Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
Post by: Bobby on May 25, 2020, 04:55:59 PM
  I agree, before and after pictures is a great learning tool. As well as proof.

Bobby