Author Topic: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine  (Read 9914 times)

Offline wgpeters

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2015, 12:20:22 AM »
Indeed!  You got it!

A person's worth is solely determined by what he does for others.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2015, 12:59:05 AM »
Glossary: http://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=1294.0

See Ionic Stabilizer, Capping Agent, Steric Stabilizer.


Thanks Kephra, Hadn't seen that. 
FYI, "glossary" is not recognized by this forum's search engine.

-Sancho

Offline wgpeters

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2015, 01:10:01 AM »
The SMF Search function is pretty sucko.
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2015, 08:58:39 PM »

I wanted to make a 250 ml of colloidal silver with a concentration of 500 ppm.

***

And this was what I also added, beside 0.25 ml of 1-mol sodium carbonate solution and 0.2 gram Gelatin.

*** = I deleted most of post.

I was wondering if that amount of Gelatin is sufficient to cap 125 mg of silver?
Wouldn't you need at least 1.5 gm of gelatin?

I have been thinking about trying to make some high PPM colloidal silver (maybe 320 PPM) and I don't want to add more gelatin than I need, but also don't want to add too little. I seem to remember that 4 grams of gelatin is the minimum amount for a full Liter of 320 PPM colloidal silver.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline PeterXXL

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2015, 10:13:42 PM »

I wanted to make a 250 ml of colloidal silver with a concentration of 500 ppm.

***

And this was what I also added, beside 0.25 ml of 1-mol sodium carbonate solution and 0.2 gram Gelatin.

*** = I deleted most of post.

I was wondering if that amount of Gelatin is sufficient to cap 125 mg of silver?
Wouldn't you need at least 1.5 gm of gelatin?

I have been thinking about trying to make some high PPM colloidal silver (maybe 320 PPM) and I don't want to add more gelatin than I need, but also don't want to add too little. I seem to remember that 4 grams of gelatin is the minimum amount for a full Liter of 320 PPM colloidal silver.


Some weeks ago I made a 250 ml 400 ppm colloidal silver where I used 200 mg (0.2 gram) Gelatin. Diluted to 20 ppm, this colloidal silver is still very clear with the typical light yellow color, which must confirm that the solution is stable. I believe that gelatin (mixture of peptides and proteins) is able to stabilize even more silver nano particles. So I urge you fellow members to try to use less and less gelatin for each batch you make, so that we can see how low we can go.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:53:32 AM by PeterXXL »

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2015, 10:26:50 PM »
Knox gelatin has a molecular weight between 60000 and 200000, and probably varies batch to batch.
 
You need enough gelatin to cover the surface of the nanoparticle, so you don't need 1 molecule of gelatin for each silver atom. 

At 14nm particle size, only about 10% of the silver atoms are on the surface of the particles.

This should give you enough information to make an estimate of how much gelatin you need at minimum.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2015, 10:45:11 PM »

Some weeks ago I made a 250 ml 400 ppm colloidal silver where I used 200 mg (0.2 gram) Gelatin. Diluted to 20 ppm, this colloidal silver is still very clear with the typical light yellow color, which must confirm that the solution is stable.

Yes, "stable" is one thing but I don't think that would confirm that all the silver particles are capped. I have some 20 PPM uncapped colloidal silver that has been sitting around for ages & hasn't changed color at all.

Perhaps if you took what you made & attacked it with salty HCl acid & the color did not change at all, then there would be some evidence to indicate that all the silver particles were capped.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 03:46:10 AM »
Knox gelatin has a molecular weight between 60000 and 200000, and probably varies batch to batch.
 
You need enough gelatin to cover the surface of the nanoparticle, so you don't need 1 molecule of gelatin for each silver atom. 

At 14nm particle size, only about 10% of the silver atoms are on the surface of the particles.

This should give you enough information to make an estimate of how much gelatin you need at minimum.
Hmmm, That computation is beyond my abilities. (I think that might be more up Peter's alley.)  I'm thinking I will go with 5 gm/L for 320 PPM. I'm guessing that should put me right about in the middle of the ballpark. If I have time I will do one batch with Dextrose as the reducer & the other with Maltose as the reducer to see if my results are similar to what Peter got. Will use 1 gm of Maltose/L and 0.5 gm of Dextrose/L.  (or a little more) I know both of those are about twice what's needed. Also going with 1.2 ml/L of 1M Na2CO3.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline PeterXXL

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 11:01:28 AM »
According to the company Sigma Aldrich (a manufacturer of chemicals for labs and medical research), the average molecule weight of their products varies between 20 000 and 100 000 with ~50 000 in average. Ref: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/docs/Sigma/Product_Information_Sheet/2/g9382pis.pdf

Gelatin molar weight = between 20 000 and 100 000
Silver molar weight = 107.87

100 mg Silver (1 liter 100 ppm; 250 ml 400 ppm, etc) / 107.87 x 20 000 (or 100 000) = 18540 mg to 92704 mg, or 18 to 93 gram. And if we assume that only 10% of the silver atoms are at the surface of each nano particle in average, then 1 / 10 of that, or 1.8 to 9.3 gram. I still believe that this is way too much of gelatin.

So, the problem is (1) we don't know the exact molecule weight of gelatin, (2) we don’t know how many percentages of the atoms in the nanoparticle that are located at the surface of the particle. But it must be better to add more than too little of stabilizing / capping agent.

But using too much gelatin will make eatable Jello instead of a drinkable solution.

BTW, I came across this one...

http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/FluidBook/fl7_3.php

...confirming that gelatin is at least better than dextrans and starch as capping agent in colloidal solutions for internal use.


I will buy some hydrochloric acid now and prepare some solutions to simulate gastric acid, so that I'm able to test the different produced colloidal silver I've made.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:46:14 AM by PeterXXL »

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 01:09:12 PM »
Quote
100 mg Silver (1 liter 100 ppm; 250 ml 400 ppm, etc) / 107.87 x 20 000 (or 100 000) = 18540 mg to 92704 mg, or 18 to 93 gram. And if we assume that only 10% of the silver atoms are at the surface of each nano particle in average, then 1 / 10 of that, or 1.8 to 9.3 gram. I still believe that this is way too much of gelatin.

In this paper, their best results was a weight to weight ratio of gelatin to gold of 31.  At that ratio for gold, the equivalent ratio for silver would be close to 60. So for 100 mg of silver you would need 6 grams of gelatin, which is within the range you just calculated.  So your estimate is not unreasonable, and the manufacturer does not disclose the molecular weight of the gelatin on their website.

To prevent 'jello', this would put a fairly low limit on the ppm which could be achieved.  I use 1 gram of Knox gelatin for 80 mg of silver in 250ml of water which is a lower ratio than above.  Much more gelatin than that and it starts to set up and become quite 'gloppy'.

Note that the physical size of a gold atom is only 5% bigger in diameter than a silver atom even though the gold weighs almost twice as much.

You can estimate the number of atoms in a nanoparticle and the number of surface atoms by knowing the diameter of a silver atom is 330 picometers and the packing ratio for spheres is 75%, and assuming the atoms are touching each other.  This is where I got the 10% number.



Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 06:27:21 PM »
Seems like this is yet another trade off situation. Too much gelatin & you make jello. Too little gelatin and only some of the silver particles will be capped. I think I made an executive decision: I will make 240 PPM so I can add 3.5 grams of gelatin/L. That should be right about at bare minimum.

Since any higher PPM colloidal silver I make would be for sending to friends or relatives who have never tried colloidal silver before I want to keep the gelatin down to an unobtrusive level. It already looks like a strange thing for someone to want to drink. They could be even more apprehensive if it is the consistency of a malt. I think the first batch of 20 PPM Gel-Capped colloidal silver I made when I started Gel-capping everything for drinking was with 3 grams/L. That wasn't too bad. My wife just mentioned that it "feels smoother". Now I use 0.4 gm/L for 20 PPM Gel-Cap which is probably almost twice what I need but it's almost undetectable.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:58:25 PM by RickinWI »
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Offline wgpeters

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 06:46:17 PM »
All reality is a balance between opposing forces. 
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2015, 07:08:47 PM »

In this paper, their best results was a weight to weight ratio of gelatin to gold of 31.  At that ratio for gold, the equivalent ratio for silver would be close to 60. So for 100 mg of silver you would need 6 grams of gelatin, which is within the range you just calculated.  So your estimate is not unreasonable, and the manufacturer does not disclose the molecular weight of the gelatin on their website.


I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.

I can take 30 ml my 20 PPM colloidal silver that is Gel-capped with 0.4 gm/L and add 10 ml of straight 1/10 Molar HCl acid that is said to have a pH of 1.0 and even add in 0.5 grams of salt for good measure.  I make a control in another wine glass. To that colloidal silver I add 10 ml DW. Leave it overnight & in the morning they both look identical when checked in many different lighting conditions. If left to sit for a few days it does eventually go clear.

I guess I should really continue on downward with my gelatin amount for 20 PPM to see at what point it begins to fail the salty acid test. Next time I make 20 PPM colloidal silver I will use 0.25 gm gelatin to see if that holds up as well. If it does then I will continue on downward on subsequent batches. If not then I will go up to 0.30 and then 0.35gm/L.

Will keep you posted but will probably take a while before I complete this experiment. However, I will do this experiment before I go ahead & make some 240 PPM colloidal silver. No sense in making that until I know the bare minimum amount needed to protect the silver from salty acid.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:05:55 PM by RickinWI »
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2015, 07:23:13 PM »
Quote from: RickinWI
I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.
What you can't say though is that the particles are the same size.  When making colloidal gold with sodium citrate as the capping agent, the particle size depends on the amount of sodium citrate present.  Less citrate makes larger particles. 
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2015, 08:06:08 PM »
Quote from: RickinWI
I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that 0.4 gm gelatin per 20mg of silver is plenty. (at least for our purpose which is to make it past the stomach acid) That would be equal to 2 grams of gelatin per 100 mg of Silver.
What you can't say though is that the particles are the same size.  When making colloidal gold with sodium citrate as the capping agent, the particle size depends on the amount of sodium citrate present.  Less citrate makes larger particles.

I have  some questions.
I thought from studying here, that darker yellow means either higher ppm, or larger sized particles.
Isn't particle size determined, at least somewhat, by the color tone?

Also, does additional capping further change the particle size after it's already been reduced?

-Sancho