Author Topic: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine  (Read 9983 times)

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2015, 08:49:17 PM »

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I have  some questions.
I thought from studying here, that darker yellow means either higher ppm, or larger sized particles.
Isn't particle size determined, at least somewhat, by the color tone?

Also, does additional capping further change the particle size after it's already been reduced?

-Sancho
According to scattering theory, the attenuation (darkening) of light is a 6th power function of diameter, while absorbance wavelength is a first power function.  That means that a 1% increase in diameter will make a 6% change in the attenuation while having no noticeable change in perceived color.  A 5% increase in particle size would make it 28% darker.

Capped does not mean stabilized, that would depend on what a particle is stabilized with.  The idea is to cap the particles with an agent that stops their growth over time.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2015, 10:32:41 PM »


Capped does not mean stabilized, that would depend on what a particle is stabilized with.  The idea is to cap the particles with an agent that stops their growth over time.

I'm a little confused Kephra.
You stated that Rick couldn't be sure of what size his capped particles were, but they were already stabilized by the time he capped them.
Wouldn't his color change, if the particles grow bigger/smaller after capping?

Thanks,

-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2015, 10:46:49 PM »
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I'm a little confused Kephra.
You stated that Rick couldn't be sure of what size his capped particles were, but they were already stabilized by the time he capped them.
Wouldn't his color change, if the particles grow bigger/smaller after capping?
If there is not enough capping agent, the particles can grow larger, and the first sign of that is a slightly darker color.  So there is a minimum amount of capping agent required to stabilize the particle size.  Thats what I was referring to.

Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2015, 04:30:58 AM »
There are really 2 different functions a gelatin cap can perform:

1. When I cap my 20 PPM Karo or Maltose Reduced colloidal silver I am not doing it to improve the stability (ability to stay the exact same color for long periods in storage). I am doing it only because I want to protect it from the stomach acid. Regular 20 PPM Karo or Maltose Reduced colloidal silver has plenty of stability all on it's own without needing a cap (as long as the amount of electrolyte used is correct).

2. Those who make higher PPM colloidal silver (like 320 or higher) need to cap the particles as they are made to prevent the particles from continuing to grow in size since it is so crowded in there with silver when compared to 20 PPM. The forces that normally keep the particles apart in 20 PPM colloidal silver are not strong enough to keep the particles apart & suspended in solution when they are overcrowded. Thus the need for capping to get the stability. Once capped the cap prevents the silver particles from touching each other & growing in size.  So colloidal silver made this way automatically accomplishes function #1 above.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2015, 05:35:52 AM »
Thanks for clarifying Rick.
I agree that capping should provide better efficacy past the stomach.
If I have this straight, your colloidal silver is already stablized at 20ppm and so, capping induces no further change in the particle size.
When making higher ppm's, the capping is done during reduction, and so particle size is affected more?

Is that what Kephra is referring to?

Otherwise I'm still confused as to why capping an already stabilized particle would make the particle bigger.
NBD, I'm confused on a daily basis.  ;)

-Sancho

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2015, 06:43:46 AM »
Yes, my 20 PPM colloidal silver is plenty stable all on it's own with no cap due to "zeta potential" which keeps those silver particles apart. All have the same elec charge so they repel each other. That holds them in suspension in the colloid. That works well for 20 PPM but once you get up to higher PPM it just gets too crowded in there for the the zeta potential repulsion to work.
The colloidal silver you made today: same story......... well at least the Cinn Reduced. (Don't know what the deal is with agave??)  You could put your Cinn Reduced on the shelf for months & it will most likely look exactly the same. Same if you had made Karo reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver. = Stable.
BTW: Cinn Reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver is also capped automatically. They use Cinn Extract in making higher PPM colloidal silver because it not only reduces it but also caps it.  The Cinn Reduced you made today will hold up better against salty acid than uncapped Karo reduced or Maltose reduced colloidal silver.  Might hold up fairly well against salty Vinegar. BUT, nowhere near as well as if you re-cap it with gelatin.

Capping probably increases the size of the entire capped particle because the cap on the outside is like a coating. How thick, I don't know but once it is digested off you have the same size silver particle you started with before you capped it.

When making higher PPM colloidal silver the reduction & capping both happen during the electrolysis. IE: you add everything: electrolyte, reducer, capping agent & then start the electrolysis. As the IS is made, it is reduced. As it is reduced the cap is put on the particle. If you are making higher PPM colloidal silver using Cinn Ext. then you just add that along with the electrolyte & then do the electrolysis because Cinn Ext dose both the reducing & the capping all at once.

But remember, you should really learn to walk before you run. Make AT LEAST 5 or 10 batches of 20 PPM Karo reduced colloidal silver.  Then make a few batches of 20 PPM Cinn Reduced colloidal silver. After that you can have fun experimenting if you want to. At least you will know what "normal" looks like.  When doing experiments I find it useful to make a big batch of IS, then split it into 4 or 5 sub-batches & reduce them all slightly differently.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2015, 12:45:26 PM »
...
I agree that capping should provide better efficacy past the stomach.
If I have this straight, your colloidal silver is already stablized at 20ppm and so, capping induces no further change in the particle size.
When making higher ppm's, the capping is done during reduction, and so particle size is affected more?

Is that what Kephra is referring to?

Otherwise I'm still confused as to why capping an already stabilized particle would make the particle bigger.
NBD, I'm confused on a daily basis.  ;)

-Sancho
Sancho, its not that capping a stabilized particle makes it bigger.  Its that insufficient capping allows it to grow bigger.  At 20 ppm, no stabilizer is necessary.  As the ppm increases then stabilizer is necessary. 

Think about making a high ppm colloidal product.  To do that you have to have the reducing agent in the water at the start so that the amount of ionic silver does not exceed 20 ppm because it would start to precipitate as silver oxide if it did. 

Then, the nanoparticles start to build right away and all is well until the solution approaches 20 ppm metallic silver.  Once that happens, the electrostatic repulsion starts to fail and the particles would start to weld together and grow to unwanted size.  To prevent that, the stabilizer (capping) agent must also be in the water.

For most stabilizers, there has to be at least one molecule of stabilizer for each silver atom on the surface of the nanoparticles.  As the electrolysis proceeds, and the stabilizer is used up, then new nanoparticles will be unstabilized, and grow out of control resulting in a mix of big particles and small stabilized particles.  This produces the turbidity of the product.

There are two kinds of stabilizers, ionic and steric.  Ionic stabilizers work by increasing the electrostatic repulsion.  Steric stabilizers work by physically keeping the particles apart by means of their size.  Ionic stabilizers are chemical compounds like sodium citrate or sodium dodecyl sulfate.  Steric stabilizers are large molecules that do not ionize like starch or gelatin.  Each one has its limit of stabilizing power and exceeding that limit produces larger than wanted particle sizes.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2015, 03:33:07 PM »
Yes, my 20 PPM colloidal silver is plenty stable all on it's own with no cap due to "zeta potential" which keeps those silver particles apart. All have the same elec charge so they repel each other. That holds them in suspension in the colloid. That works well for 20 PPM but once you get up to higher PPM it just gets too crowded in there for the the zeta potential repulsion to work.
The colloidal silver you made today: same story......... well at least the Cinn Reduced. (Don't know what the deal is with agave??)  You could put your Cinn Reduced on the shelf for months & it will most likely look exactly the same. Same if you had made Karo reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver. = Stable.
BTW: Cinn Reduced 20 PPM colloidal silver is also capped automatically. They use Cinn Extract in making higher PPM colloidal silver because it not only reduces it but also caps it.  The Cinn Reduced you made today will hold up better against salty acid than uncapped Karo reduced or Maltose reduced colloidal silver.  Might hold up fairly well against salty Vinegar. BUT, nowhere near as well as if you re-cap it with gelatin.

I will add some salt and vinegar to both test batches and see what happens.


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Capping probably increases the size of the entire capped particle because the cap on the outside is like a coating. How thick, I don't know but once it is digested off you have the same size silver particle you started with before you capped it.

Got it.

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When making higher PPM colloidal silver the reduction & capping both happen during the electrolysis. IE: you add everything: electrolyte, reducer, capping agent & then start the electrolysis. As the IS is made, it is reduced. As it is reduced the cap is put on the particle. If you are making higher PPM colloidal silver using Cinn Ext. then you just add that along with the electrolyte & then do the electrolysis because Cinn Ext dose both the reducing & the capping all at once.

OK, I will pay closer attention to when we are talking about 20ppm, vs something higher.

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But remember, you should really learn to walk before you run. Make AT LEAST 5 or 10 batches of 20 PPM Karo reduced colloidal silver.  Then make a few batches of 20 PPM Cinn Reduced colloidal silver. After that you can have fun experimenting if you want to. At least you will know what "normal" looks like.  When doing experiments I find it useful to make a big batch of IS, then split it into 4 or 5 sub-batches & reduce them all slightly differently.

Yes, I do experiments the same way, with "sub-batches".
(Great minds, eh?)
BTW, I came out running, and never looked back.   ;)

-Sancho


SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2015, 03:51:16 PM »

Sancho, its not that capping a stabilized particle makes it bigger.  Its that insufficient capping allows it to grow bigger.  At 20 ppm, no stabilizer is necessary.  As the ppm increases then stabilizer is necessary. 

That makes sense now, worded that way.
I was assuming that after the reduction process, the particles could no longer agglomerate, and that made it "stabilized".

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Think about making a high ppm colloidal product.  To do that you have to have the reducing agent in the water at the start so that the amount of ionic silver does not exceed 20 ppm because it would start to precipitate as silver oxide if it did. 

I understand that part, with higher ppm.

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Then, the nanoparticles start to build right away and all is well until the solution approaches 20 ppm metallic silver.  Once that happens, the electrostatic repulsion starts to fail and the particles would start to weld together and grow to unwanted size.  To prevent that, the stabilizer (capping) agent must also be in the water.

Is that the reason 20ppm appears to be a magical number here? The repulsion starts to fail above 20ppm?

Quote
For most stabilizers, there has to be at least one molecule of stabilizer for each silver atom on the surface of the nanoparticles.  As the electrolysis proceeds, and the stabilizer is used up, then new nanoparticles will be unstabilized, and grow out of control resulting in a mix of big particles and small stabilized particles.  This produces the turbidity of the product.

Got it.
Leftover, unstabilized particles can continue to grow, but mostly only if it's above 20ppm.
At 20ppm, the electrostatic charge is sufficient to prevent further agglomeration, stabilized or not.


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There are two kinds of stabilizers, ionic and steric.  Ionic stabilizers work by increasing the electrostatic repulsion.  Steric stabilizers work by physically keeping the particles apart by means of their size.  Ionic stabilizers are chemical compounds like sodium citrate or sodium dodecyl sulfate.  Steric stabilizers are large molecules that do not ionize like starch or gelatin.  Each one has its limit of stabilizing power and exceeding that limit produces larger than wanted particle sizes.


Just when I thought I was beginning to get a grasp...  :(


-Sancho

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2015, 03:57:28 PM »
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Is that the reason 20ppm appears to be a magical number here? The repulsion starts to fail above 20ppm?
Yes, 20 ppm is a good safe number for normal room temperature for solubility of ionic silver.
Its also a good safe number for electrostatic stability although I think that can be pushed a little to maybe 30 ppm.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

SanchoPanza

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2015, 04:09:34 PM »
Excellent Sir!
Thank you!

-Sancho

Offline Josie29

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2015, 10:36:49 PM »
Still wading through all of this information.


So Karo syrup used at the process end is a reducing agent, and not considered a 'cap.'   Because at 20 ppm there is much less particle density (than 320 ppm), there is no need for a 'cap.'  A cap, when needed, would be in addition to whatever reducing agent is used.


Is maltose a reducing agent AND a cap?


Gelatin is used as a cap ... after reducing w/ the reducing agent.


Question to Kephra ... when you make a 320 ppm batch, is it stored that way until it is needed - at which time it is diluted to 20 ppm?  [I see that the Quick Start instructions for large ppm batches indicates "Warning: Must be diluted to 20 ppm after ..."   This is because the 20 ppm is the largest concentration to be consumed at one time??]


Comments appreciated ...


Offline Josie29

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2015, 10:38:18 PM »
Duh!


Just read the topic 'reduced w/ Maltose and capped w/ Gelatin' ... Ignore one of my statements / questions!

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver reduced with Maltose and capped with Gelatine
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2015, 10:51:45 PM »
Still wading through all of this information.


So Karo syrup used at the process end is a reducing agent, and not considered a 'cap.'   Because at 20 ppm there is much less particle density (than 320 ppm), there is no need for a 'cap.'  A cap, when needed, would be in addition to whatever reducing agent is used.
Anything that binds to the nanoparticle is a cap.  Not necessarily a strong cap, but a cap nonetheless.
Silver is hydrophobic, so almost anything else will bind preferentially.
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Is maltose a reducing agent AND a cap?
Monosaccharides are both.

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Gelatin is used as a cap ... after reducing w/ the reducing agent.


Question to Kephra ... when you make a 320 ppm batch, is it stored that way until it is needed - at which time it is diluted to 20 ppm?  [I see that the Quick Start instructions for large ppm batches indicates "Warning: Must be diluted to 20 ppm after ..."   This is because the 20 ppm is the largest concentration to be consumed at one time??]
Yes, store it that way.  The advantage to high ppm is that it saves distilled water and storage space.
Yes, you should dilute it as the water also dilutes the stomach digestive fluids.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.