Author Topic: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?  (Read 4058 times)

Offline tseax

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Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« on: July 07, 2016, 07:22:08 PM »
Once again I'm looking to China for Chloroauric acid / gold chloride. As we know, living in Canada blocks one from using Salt Lake Metals handy product. It also prevents the purchase of HAuCl4 from a local chemical company without a business + business address + a good reason to be ordering the stuff - tedious, these hurdles :(

So, China suppliers are quoting me $695 US for 20 grams of product. At 47.8% guaranteed gold content (let's say 50 shall we) that's about 10 grams of Au. 1-oz of gold today is approximately US$1394 ( http://markets2.albern.com/index.html ). 1 oz ~ 28.35 grams, so one would expect 10 grams of gold metal (20 gram of HAuCl4) to cost around 10/28.35 x $1394 = $492.  Gold metal isn't gold chloride but that still makes $695 sound expensive. Then again...

Americans can buy Salt Lake Metals Gold Chloride 1% solution at $100 for 100 mL. 100 mL of 1% solution = 1 gram of gold ~ $2835/oz.  They will also sell you 99.99 gold powder at roughly $100/gm which, again, is ~ $2835/oz.

Arithmetic isn't my strong suit. It looks to me like China gold is less than half the price of World gold. That would make their Gold Chloride a steal. Am I seeing this straight?
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2016, 12:08:07 AM »
Bullion, whether it is Au, Ag, Pt or whatever, is always measured in TROY ounces (ozt.).
One TROY ounce = 31.1 gm.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2016, 02:20:35 AM »
Bullion, whether it is Au, Ag, Pt or whatever, is always measured in TROY ounces (ozt.).
One TROY ounce = 31.1 gm.

Yes indeed. So, starting over:

* We begin with $695USD for 20 grams of 47.8% gold-containing Chloroauric acid (HAuCl4) (from China) which contains approximately 10 grams of gold metal.
* 1 Troy oz of gold costs $1394USD (at one moment in time today). 1 oz ~ 31.1 gms (thank you RickinWI). 10 gms of Au would (in a linear world) cost 10/31.1 x 1394 = $448 compared to $695 for 20 grams of Chinese HAuCl4 (10 gms of gold ~ $2161USD/oz gold).
* Americans (not us Canadians) can buy Salt Lake Metals Gold Chloride Solution (1%) costing $100 for 1 gm of gold metal content. This translates to $100/1gm x 31.1 gms/oz = $3110USD/oz of gold. This is 2.2-times the cost of gold in today's market (for an ounce).
* Compare this with China's gold cost (via HAuCl4): $695/10gms x 31.1gms/oz = $2161/oz. This is ~31% less than Salt Lake Metals Gold chloride.
* Compare this with the cost of HAuCl4 (50%) from Sigma Aldrich ( https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/50790?lang=en&region=CA ) at $924CAD/5gms or $712USD/5gm * 4 = $2848 for the original required 20 grams of HAuCl4.

Does anyone have a better deal for Gold chloride than the Chinese (for Canadians without a business + business address + a great scientific/institutional excuse for the acquisition of this product)?

Of course, we have to deal with the issue of trust here as well. Who knows what standards are employed by various Chinese companies dealing with International customers ordering small quantities (one COA attached), but, I've done this once before with good results. It's either roll the dice again or stick with electrolysis which, as I recall, Kephra stated produces colloidal gold of lesser quality than the HAuCl4 recipe. Electrolysis does seem to be ~35% less expensive though (1394/2161) - 1 x -100)).

Thoughts?
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Offline Neofizz

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2016, 02:46:10 PM »
The Chinese price is low.

The only comment I can add is that their quality standard of minimum 47.8 sounds a bit on the low side.

The analysis form I have puts a spec of 48.50 - 50.25% on theirs, with confirmed analysis of 48.69% which is not really far from what you're getting.

I come back to purity. Mine is rated to be greater than or equal to 99.9% pure with trace metal spec less than 0.1% and analysis showing 0.05% (only Calcium and Zinc seem to be checked) which is 1/3rd what you have.

Still, if you've used it and it makes good looking colloidal gold.....
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Offline kephra

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2016, 03:01:23 PM »
The gold weight percentage of gold chloride is 47.75% for gold chloride tetrahydrate.
For gold chloride trihydrate,its 49.95%
For gold chloride anhydrous its 58.02%

The percentage depends on how much water is in it.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Neofizz

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2016, 03:35:03 PM »
Mine was Gold (III) Chloride Trihydrate
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Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2016, 01:29:49 AM »
Tetrachloroauric acid every time. I've attached a snapshot of extra info from the product web page, though that page contains contradictory information on "purpose" (catalyst or plating/photography). Typically there are contradictions on Alibaba product pages. It's part of the mystique, I suppose, or the joy of dealing with China.

Here's the product page as well: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Chloroauric-acid-Tetrachloroauric-acid-CAS-No_1764827196.html
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Offline kephra

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2016, 01:37:59 AM »
Quote
that page contains contradictory information on "purpose" (catalyst or plating/photography).
They are bonafide uses for gold chloride. 


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/315486-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_0630_10ML_Gold_Chloride_1_Solution.html



Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2016, 02:16:47 AM »
OMG! OMG! OMG! I wonder if the border-ban has been lifted? Or is "for photography" the secret passphrase for border crossings?

Here's their 100 mL bottle for $78USD: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/315491-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_0634_100ML_Gold_Chloride_1_Solution.html
They seem to have Salt Lake Metals beat. I suppose we need to ask them for a COA or some indication of purity/impurities...
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Offline kephra

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2016, 03:09:35 AM »
Well I suspect their gold chloride is 1% gold chloride whereas Salt Lakes is 1% gold. Thats a big difference, and doubles the price in terms of gold.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2016, 07:19:25 PM »
Heh. Yes, that makes sense. Oh well, had a nice moment of excitement there. It's now back to the consideration of Chinese Gold chloride, but, I'm thinking it's best to stick with electrolysis. Inferior quality be damned.
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Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2016, 12:56:48 AM »
Kephra,

I estimate a given quantity of gold from HAuCl4 is 2.84x MORE costly than the same quantity of gold from bullion (given a price of $60USD/gm for HAuCl4 @ 47.8% Au and $1370.25 USD / Troy oz of bullion at my local store).

My question is, in your opinion, is colloidal gold via microwave of ~2.84x better quality than that achieved through electrolysis? I believe you prefer your daily dose via the far more convenient former method  :)
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Offline kephra

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2016, 01:31:48 AM »
Reducing gold chloride definitely makes a better product, but there is no way to quantify that.  The reduction method yields smaller particles of more consistent size I think.  But with practice and tuning you can do well with bullion.   Whether making from a bullion coin is cheaper depends on whether you already have the equipment.  I suspect that you do.  Personally, I prefer the ease of starting with gold chloride, plus my wife is able to do that process.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2016, 02:04:11 AM »
Thanks for that reply K.

Yes, I have the equipment and I'm quite used to using your recipe to make 3 liters a go. I've also used the gold chloride method and appreciate the ease in that method too! I'm just trying to justify the convenience vs. the $$$. Bottom line: it's all about priorities, typically  :D
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2016, 02:43:01 AM »
I estimate a given quantity of gold from HAuCl4 is 2.84x MORE costly than the same quantity of gold from bullion (given a price of $60USD/gm for HAuCl4 @ 47.8% Au and $1370.25 USD / Troy oz of bullion at my local store).

Don't forget, you most likely would not want to choose a 1 Troy oz .9999 coin for electrolysis since you want a small anode.   I'm thinking that a 1/10 ozt. coin or rectangular bar would be about right. When you purchase fractional gold in that way the cost per gram goes up noticeably.

However, if there is any question in your mind about what might be in the Chinese Gold Chloride then that would be a stronger argument for going the electrolysis route. If you start out with a 1/10 ozt. .9999 Canadian Maple (3.1 gm.) then you know for sure what's in there. 
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.