Author Topic: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?  (Read 4468 times)

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2016, 07:17:11 PM »

Don't forget, you most likely would not want to choose a 1 Troy oz .9999 coin for electrolysis since you want a small anode.   I'm thinking that a 1/10 ozt. coin or rectangular bar would be about right. When you purchase fractional gold in that way the cost per gram goes up noticeably.


Thanks R. Would you remind me why it's BETTER to use a smaller gold anode? It's certainly cheaper to buy gold by the kilogram :) and my last gold anode was 1" x 2" foil welded to some other metal for plug-in convenience. Since it's been said here in the forum (and must therefore be true) that the gold anode need not be large, it seems to me that ideally it should be 1 mm wire, INSULATED. That would restrict metal removal to a controllable area and be damned convenient. I haven't found a local source of gold wire yet, but I did find this eBay entry:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sweetwater-9999-24ct-Gold-Wire-Pick-Your-Own-/150621993903?hash=item2311c53baf

Surely one need not buy from the UK. Is gold wire THAT under-utilized?  :-\
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2016, 08:23:40 PM »


Thanks R. Would you remind me why it's BETTER to use a smaller gold anode?


Kephra would be able to answer that question WAY better than I would.  I have never made colloidal gold.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2016, 08:41:32 PM »
The difference between silver and gold electrolysis is that silver oxide has very low solubility whereas gold chloride solubility is very high.  So you don't need a large anode area to prohibit precipitation in the anodes boundary area. 
Gold and silver also differ in the amount of electrons needed to create their compounds.  Silver needs one, but gold needs three.  So a small anode creates a higher density of chloride ions at the surface of the anode. 
Statistically, every electron (hydroxide) releases one atom of silver as silver hydroxide.
It takes 3 chloride ions to release one atom of gold as gold chloride.
Suppose a gold atom picks up one chloride.  Unless it gets another two, it will remain bound to the anode.  But that atom now has lesser charge to attract another chloride, and if it does, it will have even less charge to pickup the third.  So we want to concentrate the chlorides into as small an area as possible. 
To further add to the problems is that as the electrolysis is continued, the sodium chloride becomes used up and replaced by sodium hydroxide which will not make a soluble gold compound.  This is the reason that Faradays law does not predict an accurate run-time.

Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2016, 09:04:55 PM »
Well that explains it! Thanks very much K. Those words make a nice addition to my colloidal gold notes. :)   And just in time too. I was looking for the best local bargain for a 1 oz gold bar. Now it's 1mm gold wire (preferably if unlikely insulated). Availability may be problematic, locally.

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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2016, 04:55:23 AM »
I doubt that you will find .9999 gold wire that has insulation. I think you can accomplish the same thing though by just submerging it 1 cm or less.

After you get done pricing the gold wire, the price of the gold chloride won't look so bad anymore.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2016, 06:24:02 PM »
I doubt that you will find .9999 gold wire that has insulation. I think you can accomplish the same thing though by just submerging it 1 cm or less.
I get quite a bit of evaporation during a run - probably a few cm so that wouldn't work for me. I typically top-up the beaker every 20-3 mins. I'm thinking that perhaps, if I can find the stuff, I could use glass tubing in a clamp and run the wire down through it well down into the solution and control wire exposure that way. I may have to rob the nearest high school chem lab.
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After you get done pricing the gold wire, the price of the gold chloride won't look so bad anymore.
What? Why not? Do you think the premium on gold "wire" is going to be goofy-high? I've sent out a few queries but nothing back yet.
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Offline kephra

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2016, 06:35:30 PM »
1/20th of a troy ounce of gold wire costs $99.00 at present. (1.55 grams) which equates to $2000 an ounce.  That is a substantial premium.  For 20 gauge wire, thats $200 per foot.

Thats the best price I could find and I'm sure they won't ship out of the US.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2016, 07:26:34 PM »
...which equates to $2000 an ounce.  That is a substantial premium...

Thats the best price I could find and I'm sure they won't ship out of the US.
Argghhhh! Always another barrier. So this appears to be the current state of affairs:

An Ounce of Gold:
  • Bullion: $1370
  • Wire:     $2000
  • HAuCl4:  $3904

I really need a local source of wire. Or Chinese? This just popped up in an Alibaba search:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-025mm-Pure-yellow-gold-AU_60491144999.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.qTXZX6&s=p

Price could be killer for 200 meters. I'll keep looking...
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Offline RickinWI

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2016, 12:47:32 AM »
Too bad there's not a way to melt down a 1/10th ozt. .9999 Maple into wire.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2016, 01:25:03 AM »
Too bad there's not a way to melt down a 1/10th ozt. .9999 Maple into wire.
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Offline kephra

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Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2016, 01:54:43 AM »
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Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2016, 06:50:32 PM »
Gold bonding wire, or gold bump wire is used in electronics and sold, for example, here:
http://www.topline.tv/tanaka.html

The diameters used are tiny, I've seen a range of 15-500 microns.

I've found a source on Alibaba selling 0.025 mm wire at $105USD/gram with a 10 gram minimum totaling ~1000 meters!

QUESTION: what is a reasonable range of diameters suitable for our elecrolysis?
Another Q: is there an "ideal" diameter?
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Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2016, 10:31:08 PM »
Or do what I do: buy gold wire from Cookson Gold, (they ship worldwide), or buy a small gold bar I use a ten gram 999 fine bar and roll it out to a flat strip.

The second method guarantees purity and best value for money.

Offline tseax

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Re: Gold Chloride or Gold Bullion?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2016, 11:47:48 PM »
Or do what I do: buy gold wire from Cookson Gold, (they ship worldwide), or buy a small gold bar I use a ten gram 999 fine bar and roll it out to a flat strip.
Cookson price is very close, so that's good. But they appear to sell in 50 gram reels and that's a bit more than I'm willing to spend at one time.

As for rolling a bar of gold into a strip - I have no idea why I'd want a flat strip of gold. You might have suggested extruding it into a wire myself. THAT would be acceptable were I capable.
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The second method guarantees purity and best value for money.
No doubt about it  :)
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