Author Topic: Colloidal Silver Color Samples  (Read 28032 times)

Offline emanwols

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 141
  • Likes: 7
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2017, 12:45:18 PM »
Kephra
  the containers in your second picture appear to be plastic. i really do not think heating anything in plastic vessels is a good idea due to the possibility of chemical leaching from the plastic into the solution.

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7594
  • Likes: 104
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2017, 02:01:43 PM »
Yes, thats a possibility.  These are Fiji water bottles, made from PET plastic.  This kind of plastic leaches antimony, which is not good for us humans. 
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

gandolf

  • Guest
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2017, 09:46:37 AM »
I am not sure if this means anything or not...

I was looking for causes of different colors of 20 ppm solutions and traced one problem to contamination.  But in the process of searching I happened upon another way to make apparently 20ppm solutions of vary degrees of yellow.  The variation is from darker than normal to clear.  All were made with the usual Na2CO3 but I am now using lab grade Glucose instead of Karo.  The volume is 200ml and all were made with 60 mA*min which should make 20ppm as we all expect (3.6 coulomb).



From right to left:
The right one is 10mA at 20V for 6 minutes.  This was too much current and you could see silver stuff streaming off the anode.  No real surprise that it tuned out darker than usual.

The second one from the right is 5mA at 10V for 12 minutes.  This is just the usual 20ppm process and it turned out just as expected.

The middle one is 2mA at 10V for 15 minutes (1.8C) and then 1.5mA at 10V for 20 minutes (1.8C for a total of 3.6C).  This sample turned out much lighter.

The second one from the left is 1mA at 20V for 60 minutes.  Way lighter now.

And the left one is 0.5 mA at 20V for 120 minutes.  It's clear with a white tint.  Note that at this level you must have the sugar in the solution during the process or it turns out much like the middle sample.    Not that this sample like all of them still has the Tyndall effect.



I am using fixed cell voltages and pulse width modulation to control the current.



So I am not sure what the clear colloid is.  Its not yellow at all but is is still milky looking and reflects laser light just the same.  It does not seem to block blue light and just looks white.  The chemicals were distilled water (200ml), Na2CO30 (1mMol,  glucose (2mMol), silver (12 ga wire 2.5 inches on both electrodes with 1.75 inch separation), and the usual dissolved gases (0.83 ATM Colorado).  The resistance is 930 ohms.

So I am not sure what it means.  But it sure is fun to play with!   ;D

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7594
  • Likes: 104
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 11:49:20 AM »
gandolf:

The left most container is precipitated silver oxide crystals, and is why I don't use pulse width modulation. 

From your data, during the ON time, you are pushing 20mA through the electrodes, with a very short duty cycle.  The result is that you produced a lot of silver oxide in a short amount of time, and then turned off the electrode voltage for the rest of the cycle, removing the electric field which purges the silver ions from the diffusion layer.  This exceeds the solubility limit of the silver oxide, in the diffusion layer so it precipitates out as silver oxide.

As your samples proceed from left to right, there is less silver oxide and more silver nanoparticles.
The rate of diffusion into the bulk liquid must be accounted for.

I believe a pulse width modulation system could be made to work with the addition of 2 more electrodes.  The additional electrodes would be placed on the outside of the flask to provide a constant electric field during the OFF time of the cycle which would aid the movement of the ions out of the diffusion layer.  This though is just not worth the trouble, so I haven't tried it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 04:22:32 PM by kephra »
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

gandolf

  • Guest
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 10:46:45 PM »
gandolf:
The left most container is precipitated silver oxide crystals, and is why I don't use pulse width modulation. 
Cool!  Thanks for knowing what it is!
Colloidal Silver Oxide Generation!   ;D

In case anyone wonders why I don't drink the stuff I make!   ;D  ;D 
Ag2O is nasty stuff and I only do this for fun.  Never try to make colloidal silver like I make stuff! 

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924938

I do it for entertainment only!


Sun 12 Mar 2017 03:52:08 AM MDT

Once you play with it, and note it's rather distinctive color, I must admit that some PWM based colloidal silver maker units might be making this Ag2O stuff in excess.  And the bare battery units at first or when the batteries go dead.  (NOT trying to get into a P****** contest there...). 
Taking good and true pictures of colloidal silver is sort of hard....  Maybe our photography friends could tell use how to do it right?

Quote
From your data, during the ON time, you are pushing 20mA through the electrodes, with a very short duty cycle.  The result is that you produced a lot of silver oxide in a short amount of time, and then turned off the electrode voltage for the rest of the cycle, removing the electric field which purges the silver ions from the diffusion layer.  This exceeds the solubility limit of the silver oxide, in the diffusion layer so it precipitates out as silver oxide.

My 'play system' of the moment free floats the current during the off cycle rather than forcing the cell voltage back to zero volts.  Thus I can "see" the anode field voltages  ;)  And here they are:
There is about a 300uV offset voltage too which I do not yet understand but the data below is corrected for that...
Maybe old electrode offset voltage since they have been through a lot...  But it seems pretty strong.  Ag2O voltage??

Code: [Select]
20V drive.  Free float on off cycle. Glucose in.

mA      V Anode       %duty   Resistance
0.5     0.100         2.38    952
1       0.200         4.76    952
2       0.400         9.52    952
2.5     1.500        15.80   ?
3       1.500        21.05   1053
4       1.550        21.05   1053
5       1.600        26.32   1053
6       1.600        31.58   1053
7       1.650        36.84   1053
8       1.700        42.11   1053
9       1.700        47.37   1053
10      1.700        52.63   1053


Quote
I believe a pulse width modulation system could be made to work with the addition of 2 more electrodes.  The additional electrodes would be placed on the outside of the flask to provide a constant electric field during the OFF time of the cycle which would aid the movement of the ions out of the diffusion layer.  This though is just not worth the trouble, so I haven't tried it.

Been there, done that!!!!
I don't tell you guys everything.  ;D
I was hoping the bury this experiment under the rug but....



The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.  In my experiment I was using AC current and capacitance to get displacement currents across the insulators (like capacitors do) and offset them to produce a net DC voltage using a glass coated cathode.  My problem is I did not have enough frequency or voltage to force significant AC displacement currents past the glass insulators to set up the DC fields in the liquid.  Now, I CAN do that, but I put this one off for a latter day rather than pulling out those 220VAC cables and big RF power supplies...  An experiment for a later day  :D  Having a glass cathode would just be awesome even if it does require the most messy complex colloidal silver system ever made  ;D  But our low currents are in range of such systems....

Update:  I retested and fixed the above data chart.  The voltages did turn out to be just what we would expect.  Below 0.8 volts you are just making silver oxide as kaphra explained.

BTW - The cell resistance change is almost exactly centered at 0.8 volts on the anode.  That is exactly the standard electrode potential for silver.  So science does work!   ;)  But you don't want the delta free float potential to go less that 0.8V or you are just making colloidal silver oxide which is just a skin irritant...   :P
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 11:56:46 PM by gandolf »

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7594
  • Likes: 104
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2017, 11:04:43 PM »
Quote
The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.
Thats not quite the system I was suggesting.  You have to have an active cathode in the water, but the other two electrodes should be on the outside of the glass.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7594
  • Likes: 104
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2017, 11:13:05 PM »
Quote
The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.
Thats not quite the system I was suggesting.  You have to have an active cathode in the water, but the other two electrodes should be on the outside of the glass.

BTW, the chemical reaction at the anode is:
Ag -e --> Ag+  (silver is oxidized by the battery)
Ag+ +OH- -> AgOH (unstable silver hydroxide)
2AgOH --> Ag2O + H2O   (Silver oxide + water)

At the cathode:
Na+ +e --> Na  (sodium is reduced by the battery)
Na + H2O --> NaOH + H2 (gas)
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline WayneInPHX

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Likes: 6
  • Witty saying goes here... Ok--> "42"
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2017, 11:22:26 PM »

In case anyone wonders why I don't drink the stuff I make!   ;D  ;D 


Several of us DO ingest it, BUT ONLY Colloidal Silver that is Gelatin Capped.
Most of us don’t listen with the intent to understand.  We listen with the intent to reply.  -  From a TED Talk

"I've decided I'm not old. I'm 25 plus shipping & handling!"

gandolf

  • Guest
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2017, 11:50:49 PM »
Thats not quite the system I was suggesting.  You have to have an active cathode in the water, but the other two electrodes should be on the outside of the glass.  Insulators like glass pass zero coulombs...

The problem is the glass insulator allows zero current flow or effects in the conductive liquid...  Electrostatic fields are no match for conductive field currents.

The glass is a resistor of like 100 zillion ohms....  No current or coulombs getting past that  :)

With AC we can force displacement currents and maybe offset DC currents to our advantage.......  That is the grail I was hinting at.
Quote

@WayneInPHX
Several of us DO ingest it, BUT ONLY colloidal silver that is Gelatin Capped.

I know......  I like to ingest beer from Hawaii known as Ipapaya this night...   ;)  I only do this for fun and electrical science....  If you chose to drink it, that is a world I do not enter myself.


gandolf

  • Guest
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2017, 12:26:20 AM »
Just for the LULZ....

I made up some very bad 150ppm 0.50 volt stuff with the usual Na2CO3 and glucose....



Probably all silver oxide in colloidal form there....  But stuff will settle out....

REALLY REALLY BAD STUFF!!!!

It might even be lethal...  Silver Oxide, Oral, Mouse, 1027 mg/kg ==> dead mouse...

http://www.dfgoldsmith.com/public/pdf/msds/msds-47-368.pdf

In this sport we need to be very aware that if you do it wrong, it could go VERY VERY wrong!!!!

Always follow the instructions and voltage limits! 

I must note that many of the "other" colloidal silver maker folks out there don't watch for this very significant problem....

« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 11:45:54 PM by gandolf »

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7594
  • Likes: 104
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2017, 09:12:07 PM »
Yeah, thats really bad!  That looks like something Tony from HerbsPlusBeadWorks would make.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Neofizz

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1021
  • Likes: 42
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2017, 12:41:55 AM »
Yeah, thats really bad!  That looks like something Tony from HerbsPlusBeadWorks would make.

Oh wow. I got shivers from that memory.  :o
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

Offline WayneInPHX

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Likes: 6
  • Witty saying goes here... Ok--> "42"
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2017, 04:00:20 PM »
Just for the LULZ....

I made up some very bad 150ppm 0.50 volt stuff with the usual Na2CO3 and glucose....

REALLY REALLY BAD STUFF!!!!

It LITERALLY looks like gray water sewage!   GOOD JOB! LOL     Yup, .5 volt NO WORK.
Most of us don’t listen with the intent to understand.  We listen with the intent to reply.  -  From a TED Talk

"I've decided I'm not old. I'm 25 plus shipping & handling!"

Offline Bobby

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 962
  • Likes: 39
  • "I walk slowly, but I never walk backward" Lincoln
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2017, 12:40:21 AM »
  You know seeing that picture of you reminds me of Bryan Cranston aka Walter White aka Heisenberg of the Breaking Bad series.  😎

Bobby

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"  Abraham Lincoln

gandolf

  • Guest
Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2017, 12:56:24 AM »
I made some 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 ppm stuff.


I tried to make it very clean.  ;)


I just used the usual amount of Na2CO3 and when it was finished I added glucose to the expected ppm level of silver.  It ran very clean and changed color within a minute when the glucose was finally added.
I did not heat it or use any gelatin or anything.  It was magnetically stirred.

20, 40 and 80 ppm seemed to go fine.  But after that it did not change anymore.  In fact is seems to be a slight shade lighter over the next 90 minutes....

I suspect that after about 80ppm the extra silver ions just saturate the solution and reattach to the anode and maybe the cathode and could no longer be absorbed into the water.

I used 20V across the cell at 5mA RMS pulsed and it had 2.05 volts of battery voltage*:



It's all very clear though and no silver oxides :)

*Perhaps there is an official term for the voltage the cell runs at when open circuit??
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:11:11 AM by gandolf »