Author Topic: Colloidal Silver Color Samples  (Read 31586 times)

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2017, 02:38:56 AM »
I think you have shown once again why we do not use pulse width modulation.
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
I really doubt that any of your ppms are correct.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:22:18 PM by kephra »
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Offline cwgoodrich

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2017, 04:14:42 PM »
My 100 ppm used to be dark, as seen in your photo. Now my 100 ppm
Looks like 20 ppm. I bought new silver rods. Redid my electrolite, and
No change. Still looks like 20 ppm. Any suggestions?

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2017, 06:10:44 PM »
The obvious answer is that something must be different in your process or equipment.  It would help if you could detail both for us.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2017, 12:35:04 AM »
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
I really doubt that any of your ppms are correct.

In the pulsed system the circuit is open during the off cycle so no current can flow backwards in the wires.  But indeed the silver ions might be recollecting on the electrodes in solution during that off time and robbing the solution of the expected silver ions.  If so then there seems to be some upper limit of ppm.

I set it up again with a DC current controlled system of ~15V, 5.00mA, 48 min, 0.2 liter to get 80ppm.  No pulsing or anything with a 25V power source going through a DC current regulator.  I adjusted the voltage with the anode in solution 61mm and the cathode in 6mm.  This should make 80ppm in the usual way like normal people do it.  ;)



By briefly interrupting the current I can see that the "galvanic voltage" is still 2.1V in this system too.  In fact that voltage is very hard to change.  Maybe with different electrode sizes/spacing it would change?



I did notice that silver "smoke" was poring off the cathode.



Happily, when it was finished the solution was very clear.  I thought the silver stuff off the cathode would cloud the water but it was no problem.



And the result was that the DC solution was just a bit darker than the pulsed case 80ppm from before.  It's the one third from the right.  So the limiting effect might start at say 50ppm.



The only things that I might be doing different are my voltage is ~15V instead of the recommended "10 volts or above" and I am using glucose instead of Karo without heating.  I have also gotten pretty good at keeping it all very clean.

So I will do some more experiments and see if I can figure anything cool out.  :)

UPDATE:
I was moving the electrodes in and out of the water and all around and found that it had very little effect on the 2.1V galvanic voltage.  That seems to be some intrinsic magical good voltage.

The voltage actually starts out at about 0.3V and slowly builds up to 2.1 volts in 2 to 3 minutes.  This seems to coincide with the black coating build up on the anode.

The distance and level of the electrodes definitely does have an effect on the current level needed to maintain the 2.1 volts!   
With the electrodes in the usual place I get 2.22mA needed to get to a low 1.0 volt galvanic voltage (that is an easy point to measure).  That is 905 ohms on the cell.
With the electrodes close I get 1.03 ma needed at 645 ohms.
Those are sort of surprisingly high currents needed.  If the current is too low you will end up with the nasty stuff I showed earlier in the thread.
A concern would be if one spread the electrodes far apart to get a high cell voltage but let the current drop too low and you lost this galvanic voltage.
You actually would want high cell voltage and good current.  Or, perhaps if you have 2.1 volts of galvanic voltage the rest of the voltage on the cell does not matter.

I tried setting the galvanic voltage to 1 volt and switching between 10V and 20V across the cell (same RMS current) and the galvanic voltage stayed exactly the same.  So the galvanic voltage seems to be controlled by current.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 01:47:02 AM by gandolf »

Offline bill

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2017, 02:27:52 AM »
Quote
You actually would want high cell voltage and good current.  Or, perhaps if you have 2.1 volts of galvanic voltage the rest of the voltage on the cell does not matter.
The actual minimum is 3.52 volts.  It takes 2.72v to reduce the sodium at the cathode.  If you don't have that, then silver plates out onto the cathode and is lost.  In that case, your solution ppm is less than you think.  You need voltages above that to compensate for the voltage loss in the bulk fluid.  On top of that, the stronger electric field helps move the ions through the solution.
There is simply nothing good about using lower voltages. 



Offline bill

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2017, 04:08:52 PM »
To show how complicated the chemistry actually is:
Heres something

Offline Art

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2017, 07:34:08 PM »
Kephra,

I'm sure glad you are here to make sense out this process........that was way more than I can understand! :)

Art

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2017, 01:30:14 AM »
To show how complicated the chemistry actually is:
Heres something

Many many thanks for info like this!  So much really really GOOD info is behind Elsevier's science high dollar paper paywall....  :P  I could hit up all the PHD kids, or walk 1000 yards to the state university library (Prolly all on-line too but I am too old for that crap  ;D.....)  I actually had a 'free" science paper site once but it did not catch on very well.  But these days, I rather like to make make own science and let them all chase me.  ;D

And too that note, check this stuff out for a color sample!   ;D



That is distilled water at 23C "cooked" with two a bit warn but clean 12ga wire electrodes.  Nothing was added to the water.   No Na2CO3 or reducer and basically following the basic protocol for "Making 20 ppm Ionic Silver Without Electrolyte" in the Elite 2 manual.  No pulsing, but pure DC....  ;)

Before adding the electrolyte and glucose after it was finished, is was very clear...

Just two 12ga silver wires about 60mm in 200ml of distilled water.  2.00mA for 30 min.  After that 0.2cc of 1 Mol Na2CO3 was addend and then 0.1cc of 1Mol glucose.

Everything was done with a magnetic stirrer pushing things around moderately. 

Of course, how does one get 2.000 mA across the electrodes in DI water? 

I have a Very BIG toy chest!!   ;D ;D



I dusted this baby off...  10,000 volts at 2.5 mA.....   ;D  I still haze MUCH bigger too!  ;D But this one still is 120V.

Never play with high voltage power supplies like this unless you are an internationally known high voltage guru like I am!   :D
No, really though...  Don't do high voltages unless you really are super careful!!!  You will burn your s**** off super quick!

But with my toy I could run 2.00mA across my 200ml distilled water for 30 min to get to the grail of 20 ppm and that's how it turned out......
Quote
kephra:  I think you have shown once again why we do not use pulse width modulation.
I really doubt that any of your ppms are correct.
But maybe "color" does not mean jack s*** either....   ;)

If processes are made the same and are reproducible that IS a giant step!!
But process range scans in this game seem to indicate massive verifiability....

We actually need to pin down the color game much more!!!!

Using the same numbers, we can make almost any color now...................
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 02:04:19 AM by gandolf »

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2017, 02:23:58 AM »
Well if you had actually read the information on this site, you would already know the answer.
But I will give you a hint.  Think bells, large bells and small bells.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2017, 02:42:05 AM »
Well if you had actually read the information on this site, you would already know the answer.
But I will give you a hint.  Think bells, large bells and small bells.

I do not understand......

Why try and  give "hints" unless you are trying to be tricky or hiding things......

Just give the info straight up so we ALL can see it.......

I try to be totally straight forward in my info and you should too.

I think I have read the info on this site more than 99%  ;)


Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2017, 02:59:22 AM »
I already have given the info, you just didn't bother to read it. 
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.


gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 12:56:15 AM »
To show how complicated the chemistry actually is:
Heres something
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf

That actually explains so very much!!!

This chart is pure gold!



That exactly coincides and explains my voltage vs. current tests and why I see those flat spots and jumps in the galvanic voltages!  :D



I suppose if I make it on specifically those voltage levels I could make all kinds of screwed up stuff!   8)

But on the other hand the paper also eludes to all that can go wrong!  :-\
Total cell voltage, specific current, electrode configuration and their electrical fields....
These can all mess up the "pretty colors" we expect to see.

Fortunately the SilverTron is at least a standard system that can make reproducible results for many people and has rock solid theory behind it.
But you have to keep it very clean.  Any contaminates can have a drastic effect of messing things up.
I use disposable plastic containers that are never cleaned but just thrown away - with apologies to the Lorax...   :'(
But that does eliminate most contaminates.
I also cover the thing with plastic wrap to prevent spit particles form getting in while I am laughing historically while listening to Tony's Youtube videos...   ;D
I did have problems with electromagnetic waves from the switching power supplies messing up my colloidal silver measurements....  ::)  But no worries from
Chemtrails......

I must wonder...  If a "standard" really could be made to "judge" colloidal silver that normal amateurs with home or a little Amazon science equipment could reliably reproduce......  Particle size and PPM are giant factors....

The SilverTron is almost there except for cell voltage control and electrode configuration.  Many on the outside of this forum hate adding things like Na2CO3...  My own little toy varies pulse width and frequency all over the place to try and control things....  High voltage is fun for "me" but that is out of reach for just about everyone...

So I am thinking along the lines of evaporating off the water and studying what is left.  But that increases concentrations while still in the liquid that might cause odd precipitations....

We also need to work on electrode configuration...  12ga wires vs. some bullion things is just messing everything up!

Of course the 320ppm is so far out there...  Lets see if we can manage quantize 1ppm first.   ;)

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2017, 01:11:05 AM »
Quote
We also need to work on electrode configuration...  12ga wires vs. some bullion things is just messing everything up!
No we don't.  Either one makes perfect Colloidal Silver provided allowance is made for current density and stirring.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using sodium carbonate.  As I have explained many times, it does 3 very beneficial things, and the amount required is far less sodium than a person gets with food.  The same goes for glucose based reducing agents.

IMO, you are looking for problems where there are none.  The goal is to make silver nanoparticles in the 14nm size range.  That is the best size for safety and efficacy according the lab research that has been done over the years.  That is already simple to do.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2017, 02:28:40 AM »
Quote
No we don't.  Either one makes perfect colloidal silver provided allowance is made for current density and stirring.
I respectfully disagree...

While the edges and contours might be making "perfect" stuff, the large flat surfaces might be making low voltage starved "sewage"......

Surface current density is a very big deal in this game.  As the voltage paper you gave us shows, low current areas are contributing bad contaminates.  We must just about eliminate silver oxide for sure.

Quote
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using sodium carbonate.  As I have explained many times, it does 3 very beneficial things, and the amount required is far less sodium than a person gets with food.  The same goes for glucose based reducing agents.

Of course!  But some others like to blame their own failures on that.  We need better data really to explain why things turn out the way they do....  If it does not go right, adding sugars and gelatin is just a massive "blame game" target.

Quote
IMO, you are looking for problems where there are none. 

I think I know of some "problems"....  :)
I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.

Rest assured, I am not some evil person here to hurt you or anything.  But I am a person that can see problems and fix them.

I think we need to get away from Karo and go to good grade reliable glucose*. 
Then we need to get a "standard" electrode configuration that has good current density control facts behind it.  Even the two rod configuration is vastly more controllable than silver bullion objects.
Then we need to get that cell voltage under control.  That IS a very big one!
Then we need to get ppm under control.  Might be the easiest.   ;)
Then we need to get actually reliably measuring all this stiff under control...  And making this stuff actually measurable and provable is a GIANT task!!!  Because if we can't prove it, to the level of anyone really caring being able to prove it too for themselves, it really is just all BS...

So sorry, but I do see few problems in paradise  ;)

*I like glucose because if any living human complains about their being allergic or opposed to it....   ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose

« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 02:45:01 AM by gandolf »