Author Topic: Colloidal Silver Color Samples  (Read 46005 times)

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2017, 11:48:24 AM »
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Surface current density is a very big deal in this game.  As the voltage paper you gave us shows, low current areas are contributing bad contaminates.  We must just about eliminate silver oxide for sure.
This statement shows your misunderstanding.  We do not want to eliminate silver oxide, we want to make it.  It is the starting point, and is the only thing you can make with silver and electricity whether you add electrolyte or not.
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While the edges and contours might be making "perfect" stuff, the large flat surfaces might be making low voltage starved "sewage".....
We are not making sewage.  Thats what happens when you do not keep sufficient voltage across the cell.
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Of course!  But some others like to blame their own failures on that.  We need better data really to explain why things turn out the way they do....  If it does not go right, adding sugars and gelatin is just a massive "blame game" target.
You are just showing your ignorance of the process.  You seem to have no clue what those are for.
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I think we need to get away from Karo and go to good grade reliable glucose*. 
Glucose is not the best reducing agent.  It is too fast and the molecules are too small for effective capping.  Corn syrup is slower and being a mixture of glucose and maltose, is better at capping (stabilizing).  Pure maltose is slightly better than corn syrup, but is harder to obtain for the average person.
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Then we need to get a "standard" electrode configuration that has good current density control facts behind it.  Even the two rod configuration is vastly more controllable than silver bullion objects.
Flat bullion electrodes have not been a problem for anyone, and allow much faster processing.  What you have neglected is the fact that the stronger electric field at the edges also moves the ions from the diffusion layer faster than where the field is weaker.  It is self compensating.
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Then we need to get that cell voltage under control.  That IS a very big one!
Not a problem at all.  Keep the cell voltage up to at least 10 volts, and every redox is covered and provides good electrophoresis.
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Then we need to get ppm under control.  Might be the easiest.
Thats already done, and has been known for 183 years.  Its also easily provable.
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Then we need to get actually reliably measuring all this stiff under control...  And making this stuff actually measurable and provable is a GIANT task!!!  Because if we can't prove it, to the level of anyone really caring being able to prove it too for themselves, it really is just all BS
Luckily, that has already been done in laboratories around the world and with a bigger toolbox than yours. 

« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 09:32:33 PM by kephra »
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Bobby

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2017, 12:23:15 PM »
gandolf,

  The remarks about the SilverTron are very rude and uncalled for!  And apologizing for being rude or blunt or whatever you call your less than sincere comments is ludicrous.

  Kephra asks the same thing of all of us...to read and understand the processes involved with making colloidal silver.  We are not ask to remake the SilverTron line of colloidal silver generators.

  If you do not own one or even had the chance to use one, your comments don't have a leg to stand on.  You are assuming you know exactly what is happening inside on of Kephra's SilverTrons.  We all want to learn more about the improvements that can be made in the production of colloidal silver.  And I'm sure there will be discoveries made in the future.

  I own 3 different brands of colloidal silver generators.  I have seen many reviews of dozens of other colloidal silver generators that are not favorable.  Therefore there are many other makers of bad colloidal silver generators that you can hassle.  I have never read a bad word about the SilverTron till you.  And you don't even own one.

  The SilverTron does exactly what it claims to do.  Whenever a bad batch is made with a SilverTron being use, it always come back as a user problem.  There are many members who have built their own setups, both simple and complicated.  And with the input and advice from Kephra, other members and their own efforts they are making excellent colloidal silver and colloidal gold.

  We really appreciate good advise from all the members who contribute to this forum.  We encourage participation and input.  And you have made some interesting points.  But in your own words you are new to colloidal silver world and don't intend on using it anyway.

  But it's all starting to feel a little like you are here to undermine the SilverTron and Kephra as an inventor, chemist and electrical engineer.  So if that's the case you are barking up the wrong tree.

  If in the future these comments prove to be wrong, I will make the appropriate apologies.

 Bobby
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:14:38 AM by Bobby »
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"  Abraham Lincoln

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2017, 10:39:50 PM »
gandolf,

  The remarks about the SilverTron are very rude and uncalled for!  And apologizing for being rude or blunt or whatever you call your less than sincere comments is ludicrous.


Bobby and keprha,

I did not intend for my comments to be rude or in anyway as an attack on kephra or the SiverTron units.

Kephra knows probably 1000X more than any other person in the colloidal silver industry.  He is the only person anyone should listen too if you are making and using colloidal silver for personal use.  The SilverTron units are a reliable gold standard for colloidal silver generators and I completely agree that the other units out there are unreliable if not simply dangerous.  Kephra also has vastly more process and chemical knowledge than probably anyone ever in the colloidal silver world.  That is actually much more important than the generator itself since kephra knows how to make it work very well.

I am an outsider.  I see the colloidal silver world from many perspectives.  There are 10,000X more people using three batteries and wire than SilverTron users and that really should change.  I am not here to change the SilverTron, kephra, or you guys here.  You are already in fine hands.  But in the colloidal silver users world you are the 0.01%  Just look at all the stupid colloidal silver videos on you tube that have over 100,000 views.  They must be doing something right...  :o

Trying to convince others is very difficult.  They are religious about what they think is right and they will not easily change from making colloidal silver exactly the same way their grand dad made it.  And then there are people out there that will tell folks anything to sell them a resistor and and LED in a box...
The only way to really convince them is to show them directly or have them try and test things themselves.  Unfortunately, they will not buy an Elite II or read the articles simply because we tell them too.  We wish they would, but they won't. 

However, you can get them to try things for themselves.  Cell voltage is a perfect example since just about anyone can try high and low voltages and see the difference.  Then you can tell them why that happens (if you know).  Then you can get them to play with colors and concentrations and ionic and reduced solutions.  Maybe even get them to use a timer.  Trying to get them to use washing soda in their Colloidal Silver is a giant step.  They think washing soda is just for cleaning socks....
At least they are pretty good about using pure silver and distilled water.  But if they really do it perfectly that won't work and then they go back to using rainwater and old quarters they bought at the flea market.

So I probably won't change you guys here even if I do see a minor problem here or there.  That's fine.  But I would like to change a few other people's minds.
Don't worry, I won't try and convince anyone to go buy $20,000 of electronic test equipment.  But I might try to tell them exactly what it is doing and mention that a guy sells these SilverTron units that do the exact same thing automatically.  They will ask a lot of stupid questions and I would like to have the answers to some of the weirder ones.

So I ask questions here and try odd and stupid things.  But there are thousands of people out there that are doing even odder things than me every day.  In order to try and tell them anything, you have to walk in their shoes too.  It really helps if they ask "Have you ever tried to make the silver with a Tesla coil?" if you can answer - yes...

I will try and be a little less annoying.  I think I am at the point now of working on things that are outside of this forum's general interest.  But don't worry I won't go far.   ;)

Offline bill

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2017, 11:38:30 PM »
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"Have you ever tried to make the silver with a Tesla coil?

Actually, I have done something very close using a high voltage neon sign transformer.  It lead to the discovery that silver will heat reduce at temperatures near boiling.
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I think I know of some "problems"....  :)
I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.
That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.


gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2017, 01:15:45 AM »
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Actually, I have done something very close using a high voltage neon sign transformer.  It lead to the discovery that silver will heat reduce at temperatures near boiling.

Nice!  But I must super warn everyone NEVER do what this moron does...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQwo78Q9gkQ

I assume this guy killed himself since...

Microwave oven transformers are just about at the very same voltage, current, DC (with the typical voltage doubler of old microwaves) of electric chair death machines....

Never play with high voltages in this sport unless you know way too much......

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That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

I imagine it as a simple current controller with a uC to do the coulomb time integration.

But maybe it can do more.  I know what I "wish" t could do. :-*

But it is totally proprietary and there is really zero info as to what is inside it.  Which is fine in this case.

BTW- I never meant for my comments to drive this nice color thread so off topic....  :(

Perhaps all this BS should just be deleted from this thread...

That would be fine with me.  And I apologize for some how starting the OT.  I did bad...  :-[

BBTW - Most of the whiny complaints I mentioned have now been solved!  The field stress issue solution is too obvious and dumb to mention...   :-[


i_vanovich

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2017, 03:04:33 AM »
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
can this mean chemical conversion from electricity is occurring with off time?
or effect of electrolytic reversal?

if yes
how will differentiation with reverse polarity become established?

Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2017, 12:16:04 PM »
During the off time, you have a galvanic cell.  In a galvanic cell, current flow is reversed, so the silver is replating onto the silver anode.
can this mean chemical conversion from electricity is occurring with off time?
or effect of electrolytic reversal?

if yes
how will differentiation with reverse polarity become established?
If the anode is simply disconnected during the off-time, there is no current flow so no reverse plating but the cell will exhibit some open circuit voltage.  The amount of voltage depends on the electrolyte, concentration of the electrolyte, pH, and cell temperature.  This is basically a silver and silver-oxide battery cell during the off time.  The electrode which is more chemically reactive will be the negative. 

If the anode is grounded during the off time, then there will be some current flow and there will be reverse plating until the cell is discharged.

Pulse width modulation (turning the power to the anode on and off to get an average current) doesn't make any sense, and is an overall detriment to the process.  Reversing polarity is even worse as it destroys the ability to predict how much silver goes into solution.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 01:33:46 PM by kephra »
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Offline kephra

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2017, 01:32:20 PM »
...
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That was really a brash statement considering you do not even have a sound grasp on how the system works.

I imagine it as a simple current controller with a uC to do the coulomb time integration.

But maybe it can do more.  I know what I "wish" t could do. :-*
What?  Turn lead into gold perhaps?  I wish it could do that too.

But I was not referring to the SilverTron, I was referring to your lack of knowledge of the process. 
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But it is totally proprietary and there is really zero info as to what is inside it.  Which is fine in this case.
That is another unwarranted assumption.  I have told everyone how it works on this forum, and even posted pictures of the circuit boards and construction.  Maybe you should check your facts before making such statements.  I have even stated where the inspiration for the SilverTron Elite came from.
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...
BBTW - Most of the whiny complaints I mentioned have now been solved!  The field stress issue solution is too obvious and dumb to mention...   :-[
Field stress is not a problem and has never been a problem as I have already explained in other posts if a person follows my process recommendations.  If you have a problem, you are doing something wrong.

The purpose of this forum is to show people how to make their own high quality and effective Colloidal Silver using non-toxic readily available materials.  I believe I have been very successful at that.  The forum will soon turn 9 years old.  Although there are only 250 members at this time (because I delete people who have not been active for a period of time), thousands of people came here, learned what they needed, and moved on.  You (gandolf) are member number 11345. 

So far, you have contributed nothing of value to that endeavor.  I have no idea why you want to experiment with Colloidal Silver, since you are not interested in the health aspects, but the rest of us are... that is why we are here.  You continually allude to knowing more than me or the rest of the forum, but you have shown nothing except how to fail.  We already knew that.  You seem like a person who looks at 3 trees and then professes to know everything about the forest.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

i_vanovich

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2017, 04:32:51 PM »
If the anode is grounded during the off time, then there will be some current flow and there will be reverse plating until the cell is discharged.
thank-you with detailing this explanation

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2017, 07:38:05 PM »
I thought this was interesting.



They are all 0.2 liter with 2 inch 12ga. wire electrodes spaced 2.25 inches apart.  The cathode is fully inserted like the anode.  The usual 1mMol/L of Na2CO3 and put in 1mMol/l Glucose after the runs.
They are all 20ppm with 3.6 Coulomb used for 0.2 liters.
The voltage across the cell was 25.0 volts and the current was varied (from left to right) as 20, 10, 5, 2.5, 1.25 and 0.63 mA.
This is using a current pulse with system at 977Hz with the circuit going open (not grounded) during the off time.
They were magnetically stirred at room temperature.  The cell resistances where around 1.21 kOhms.  The galvanic off voltages where 2.1 volts and the left three and varied greatly on the other three.

The left most one at 20mA was darker.  Probably larger particles but I did note that the cathode was "smoking" stuff* into the solution which apparently dissolves since the final solution is completely clear.  The current duty cycle was 89%
One interesting thing is that the anode was very easy to clean after the run.  It was just sort of a light gray.  Perhaps the higher current makes the silver oxide not stick as much.  It also only ran for 3 minutes at this current.

The next 10 mA was lighter and more what we are used to.  There might have been just a hint of smoke off the cathode.  The anode was harder to clean.  The current duty cycle was 48%.

The 5ma sample looked completely normal and what we are used to.  It was the lightest yellow.  The anode was still harder to clean and the cathode had a slight cast to it.  It seems exactly like the same stuff made with DC and a slightly inserted cathode at 5mA.  The current duty cycle was 24%

The 2.5 mA sample was a bit darker and just very slightly milkish cloudy but you would not notice if it was not next to the others.  The galvanic off voltage was a bit lower at 1.8 volts (the voltage starts to drop off at 3mA).  It was probably showing the first signs of low galvanic voltage.  The anode on this and the rest were tough to clean.  The current duty cycle was 11.5%.

The 1.25mA sample only had a galvanic off voltage of 0.5V and was darker and pretty cloudy.  It had that messed up look to it.  The current duty cycle was 5.2%.

The 0.65mA sample was darker still and more cloudy.  The galvanic voltage was about 400mV and the current duty cycle was only 2.9%.

So it looks like higher currents like 10 and especially 20 mA made larger particles and darker solutions.  But the anodes were easier to clean and it ran very fast at 3 and 6 minutes.  5mA looked the most "perfect" and what we are used to seeing.  2.5mA was not bad but it do show a few slight signs of trouble.  1.5 and 0.65mA had low galvanic off voltages and were dark and cloudy.

Some variables would be the electrode size and spacing with would vary the cell resistance.  That would also vary the current duty cycle for a given current and duty cycle has a large effect on the galvanic voltage.

So you can make Colloidal Silver with pulsed current.  Is it just a whole lot harder and more can go wrong.  But it does allow one see some interesting effects.  Personally, I find it fascinating!

*Do we know what that "smoke" off the cathode is and does it have an official name?

Offline bill

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2017, 08:31:39 PM »
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*Do we know what that "smoke" off the cathode is and does it have an official name?
Its a mixture of silver salts that precipitated in the diffusion layer.  Its mostly silver oxide with a little silver carbonate.  If you didn't have the stirrer, it would have fallen to the bottom and reduced on the surface creating a mirror. At least thats what happens with a glass jar.

Once again, you have shown why PWM is not a good idea.  It destroys the electrophoretic effect.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2017, 11:21:11 PM »
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Once again, you have shown why PWM is not a good idea.

Yes.  Normal folks should NEVER get a PWM based Colloidal Silver machine*...  There is a LOT that can go wrong!  They are fairly tame at higher currents but at lower currents (low current duty cycle) the low galvanic voltages are a giant killer mess!  And then there are the PWM current and coulomb  calculations (what could possible go wrong  ;D  I finally figured out why I need a Coulomb calibration factor of 1.03765)...   But as a purely scientific tool PWM tools do help track down the odd effects.   ;)

The higher currents are interesting in that the electrodes are cleaner.  It is also much faster.  But larger particles are the downfall.  But that is a "choice" between purist and the impatient folks  ;)


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Its a mixture of silver salts that precipitated in the diffusion layer.  Its mostly silver oxide with a little silver carbonate.

I am curious about one point that kephra may know right off.  In the DC case using a little tiny cathode surface area (cathode mostly pulled out of the solution) to get the cell voltage up we see the electrode smoke off all those silver salts.  In the big cathode surface under PWM case we don't "see" that with the eyes.

But I have a funny feeling that the silver salts/oxides going into the solution are just the same either way.  With the small surface, the salts+ production is just visible and in the large cathode (same current with PWM)  case we just can't "see" it.  But in the end, the amounts of silver salts+ going into the solution is just the same either way?

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At least thats what happens with a glass jar.

Glass has a relative permittivity of 4.7 and  plastics are in the same range.  But plastics are "plastic" so they have a lot of "issues..."  :o   All that oily stuff might mess up the plating and stickyness...


*I have a long list of very interesting questions to ask makers of PWM based Colloidal Silver machines that I bet they don't have answers too  ;D  ;D 


Offline bill

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2017, 12:49:44 AM »
We want silver salts, mainly silver oxide to be IN SOLUTION.  What you see as smoke is the same silver salts precipitated out because they exceeded the solubility limit in the diffusion layer.  How long it takes those particles to redissolve depends on how big the crystals have grown in the diffusion layer. 

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2017, 01:40:05 PM »
...I know you make and push the SilverTron and all that....
But, it is not "perfect" yet....
There really are weaknesses than can be fixed very easily.
Nobody on this forum, I repeat nobody, has used, made, experimented with, or made Colloidal Silver with as many different commercial machines than me.

I can categorically state that the SilverTron is

i) as near perfect as it is possible to make a machine (I don't have the latest revision of the Elite firmware, but that does not alter the process or affect its' capabilities).

ii) the ONLY way to make Colloidal Silver to an accurate ppm for injection without electrolyte. (This may not be an issue, as we have had a qualified Doctor in Africa, where they do not see fit to trouble the AMA or BMA with requests to be allowed to prescribe things which work, but which are not necessarily approved-of by Big Pharma, use it with great success). However, it does mean that the product can be made very slowly with great accuracy.

gandolf

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Re: Colloidal Silver Color Samples
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2017, 10:54:10 PM »
I made some with regulated DC voltage for comparison.  The four new ones are in the front color matched to the earlier tests.



Only an occasional 50uS off time to measure the galvanic voltage.  One thing (perhaps the only thing) current pulsing IS good for!   ;D
They are all 0.2 liter with 2 inch 12ga. wire electrodes spaced 2.25 inches apart.  The cathode is fully inserted like the anode.  The usual 1mMol/L of Na2CO3 and put in 1mMol/l Glucose after the runs.
They are all 20ppm with 3.6 Coulomb used for 0.2 liters.

The first one on the front left is 20.0VDC.  The current was 14.37mADC and the galvanic voltage was 2.3V.  This made lots of precipitation at the cathode.  But like kephre says it actually does just dissolve into the solution with a little time.  At the end of a run at this level it might be a good idea to stir it a little while until all this is dissolved before adding the Karo.  I wonder if the precipitate could be made in a powdered form to make colloidal silver just by adding a powder to distilled water.  Sort of like powdered Gatoraid?  Probably not very shelf stable especially if it had to be mixed with NaCO3 and Glucose powder*.

The second sample from the left is 10.0VDC at 6.73mA.  The galvanic voltage is 2.04V fairly clear and this turned out only slightly darker than the normal 5mA stuff.  Looked perfectly good and normal really.

The third sample is 5V at 2.74mA.  The galvanic voltage started to drop a little to 1.92V and it shows a little low voltage trouble but not noticeable unless compared to the others.

The last sample is at 2.5V, 1.60mA with a galvanic voltage of only 0.64 volts.  This has the full orange milky look to it caused by low voltage.

So the results actually turned out just as expected.  So after two months I am starting to get a little good at this stuff  ;D  I should have just bought a SilverTron......   ;)  But I know a whole lot more by designing and building my own car and understanding exactly how it works rather that just going over to Ford and buying another Mustang.   ;)

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We want silver salts, mainly silver oxide to be IN SOLUTION.  What you see as smoke is the same silver salts precipitated out because they exceeded the solubility limit in the diffusion layer.  How long it takes those particles to redissolve depends on how big the crystals have grown in the diffusion layer. 
Yes!  I made a bunch and sat there are watched it dissolve!  I guess it is good stuff after all.  And I bet no matter if you see it or not the net amount is pretty much exactly the same no matter what "good" process is used.

But I am thinking if one uses high currents for faster production one should wait after a run until all the precipitates are fully stirred and dissolved in before adding the reducer.

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cfnisbet
Nobody on this forum, I repeat nobody, has used, made, experimented with, or made colloidal silver with as many different commercial machines than me.

I can categorically state that the SilverTron is...

The SilverTron is a cool uC controlled current source and Coulomb counter...  Any kid can make the first one and any EE can make the second.
But what really makes the SilverTron THE magic machine is the pure genius Bill has put into it this whole sport!  His great knowledge of chemistry and electronics came together to just solve this whole world!

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ii) the ONLY way to make colloidal silver to an accurate ppm for injection without electrolyte. ... However, it does mean that the product can be made very slowly with great accuracy.
Micro and nano amps  :D  While still keeping the voltage high  ???  --  Oh...  I guess if the resistance is 250000 Ohms keeping the voltage high is pretty easy!   :)

I have not believed anything in the colloidal silver world unless I can prove it for myself.  Of course, I have no knowledge in most of this so the learning was hard and I messed up many times.  However, I have never been able to disprove or fault Bill on anything!  If he was BSing us, I would have found it by now. 
Most colloidal silver guru's get ignored after watching their youtube videos for 15 seconds........
But Bills genius and thought behind all this really had made this a fascinating and great journey for me!

*The pharmaceutical folks have a ton of ways to fix that...  Colloidal silver "timed release"....  Ambien - $3  AmbienCR - $105!!!!  Those F.......  Must stop commenting now... ;)


« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 11:05:32 PM by gandolf »