Author Topic: Maltodextrin tidbits  (Read 4039 times)

Offline WayneInPHX

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Likes: 6
  • Witty saying goes here... Ok--> "42"
Maltodextrin tidbits
« on: February 07, 2017, 09:54:45 AM »
After doing a lot of calculation work regarding my Maltodextrin calculator, I realize that my "comments' tags in it represent some decent info. SO, here it is:

A single molecule of Glucose has TWO binding points in its molecular chain.  1 Molecule of glucose reduces 2 atoms of silver oxide.
Although Maltodextrin can have 3 to 17 glucose molecules in each Maltodextrin molecule, ONLY the last one in the chain of the Maltodextrin molecule is available to reduce.

Maltodextrin is a weird animal.  It does not have a constant molecular weight from one molecule to the next.  That’s not to say that a bag of it in your hand is magically changing before your eyes.  Each molecule can have a different length of glucose chains ranging from  3 to 17.  Because of this we need to “guess” at the weight.  Different sources would appear to have chains within a certain range. When you buy a new bag, it may vary greatly from your previous stock, requiring a adjustment. Because of this, I would NOT mix old with new.  For the same reasons, you may find that two different sources “taste” significantly sweeter/less sweet.  It is that chain length thing that will be the cause. Just remember that each time you purchase some, adjustments may be needed.

Maltodextrin consists of D-glucose units connected in chains of variable length. The glucose units are primarily linked with α(1→4) glycosidic bonds. Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units in length.  Only the last molecule in the chain actually does the reduction.

A real laboratory derivation of the Dextrose equivalent requires testing a sample.  Though it is a fairly simple process, the mathematical formulas are complex and equipment needed is expensive.

Whether 3, 17 or anything in between, only the last molecule in the each chain reduces 2 silver ions, meaning that each Maltodextrin molecule, regardless of how many Glucose molecules exist in it, can only reduce two atoms.

As you can see from sequence below, The midpoint is 10, and 8 is slightly less than halfway between the mid and lowest molecule number.  Seems a reasonable WAG to start with.


# of Molecules

   17
   16
   15
   14
   13
   12
   11
   10     ← midpoint
     9
     8     ← good starting point
     7
     6
     5
     4
     3
Most of us don’t listen with the intent to understand.  We listen with the intent to reply.  -  From a TED Talk

"I've decided I'm not old. I'm 25 plus shipping & handling!"

Offline Dean

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 507
  • Likes: 38
    • Social SilverTron Facebook Portal
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 11:59:36 PM »
Thanks for the info wayne,

I appreciate the considerable effort you've put into this.
Having fun with the calculator and working on a version for excel users when time allows.
I have a little plan for it too to help me track my batches. I hope you like it.

You've actually solved a problem for me with this as I didn't have a lot of success with malto in the first instance. Now getting some cracking jars knocked out. Super super consistent! Pretty damn clear too.

You'd never even know they weren't the same batch dropped into 2 jars they are that consistent !

So really really appreciate your effort on helping me get to grips with this !

Take care my friend :-)

Offline WayneInPHX

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Likes: 6
  • Witty saying goes here... Ok--> "42"
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 02:29:59 AM »
Thanks for the info wayne,...

I appreciate the considerable effort you've put into this...

So really really appreciate your effort on helping me get to grips with this !

Take care my friend :-)

You're Welcome!

I think I might be going peculiar...  Evey time I turn around I think of something to add. :P
What I'm toying with next is a dynamic CHART showing at what times your production solution passes a particular PPM amount.  In other words, PPM over time.
AAHHHHHHHHhHHhHh!!!   Someone throw me a rope!...... with a noose!  LOL
Most of us don’t listen with the intent to understand.  We listen with the intent to reply.  -  From a TED Talk

"I've decided I'm not old. I'm 25 plus shipping & handling!"

Offline Bobby

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 999
  • Likes: 39
  • "I walk slowly, but I never walk backward" Lincoln
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 04:24:48 AM »
Hey Dean, 

 Do you mind sharing your formulas.

Bobby
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"  Abraham Lincoln

Offline Dean

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 507
  • Likes: 38
    • Social SilverTron Facebook Portal
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 12:00:50 AM »
Hi Bobby,

NO! NO BOBBY! They are mine! You cannot have them! I love them, they are my babies, they live in a dark place covered with lead, an old blanket, wooden pallets and a rotting banana skin to ward off evil spirits who seek to challenge their very existence. If ANYONE should stumble across them, they will surely perish amidst the greatness that is Kephra, Lord of our black art and keeper of the book that becomes us ONLY when winter mists descend this earth and Stir the giants of wisdom.

NEVER! Let word or deed by hand of man dissolve the spirit of mans endeavour OR be divided among greater warriors that seek to learn from greatness that steals our broken heart for THIS day! THIS day! THIS DAY LEAVETH ME WEAK WITH ENVY ! Charting my course through formidable enemies!

And so it is said, my art thou shall not be deprived this awesome power that has befallen me this day.
For is it not 20 parts in 1 million that be done simply cold but not of freezing temperature, only tepid as the day provides lest no more heat be brought to bear upon this jar of mine!

Always but 1 litre giveth me consistency for that I seek each batch upon it.
Dripping always 1vial of the speed demon that doth speed up production of this serum!
1ml lot doth make it right and correctness of this wonder powder mixed with water pure in content giveth me the result that is needed.

For 40 particles in 1 million again shall I add more heat than allows me to collect with bear hand from a magical heating device with flashing lights and beeping its completion. But beyond 40 degrees C may no man travel without risk of gravely turbid times ahead !

But for simplicity and whimsical fascination doth we try to provide convenience for our patrons.
Consumed by hours of endless fire cleaning to rid the Gods of destruction.
Adding but 32 drops of Beauty does the solution begin and end with success.
No more than that which requires a stable work from which to forge this black gold that is our silver!
But with heat that cannot be touched nor held would man be taken In by such foolishness!

5 long hours should pass my eyes before the land falls silent and capped silver may linger in a jar especially prepared for longer times than concentrations low may be wisly avoided !

Take heed Bobby, each man and woman alone can master such wizardry !
Yet no man or woman is permitted to see inward where understanding lets us down save for the All seeing God  that is

Kephra, Keeper of the Book!

Offline Bobby

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 999
  • Likes: 39
  • "I walk slowly, but I never walk backward" Lincoln
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 03:11:52 AM »
Dean,

  I too have seen the flashing of lights with strange sounds coming forth from a mysterious magic box.  It has been rumored that Kephra the Great is the only being that has the knowledge and the wonderous skills to construct such a magical box! 

  But I must pursue this course if I am ever to call myself a man!  I must face the flashing of the lights and the strange sounds that cometh forth.  I must fight back the fear of losing my sight or never being able to hear the sweet sound of my wench's voice again.  I refuse to believeth that such dangers would come forth from such a device made for the betterment of man. The drive to hold in my hands the power that this box contains is overwhelming.  I MUST COMPLY!
 
  Dean, Thankest thou for imparting such ancient wisdom upon one so lowly and profane as I.  I inquire this of you, not to anger thee, but only that ye my be able to share the accumulated knowledge ye have gained through dedication to the art of silver manipulation.  May the great Kephra grant me the wisdom to decipher the mysteries ye have imparted unto me!

  Bobby

BTW, This is about as good as it gets from a dyslexic Okie.
 
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"  Abraham Lincoln

Offline Dean

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 507
  • Likes: 38
    • Social SilverTron Facebook Portal
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 07:29:29 AM »
Aaah! Bobby my child, you speaketh well my child.
It is clear in mind and spirt that thou hast indeed become a believer. And trough that spirit the child becometh a man without boundary. Seeking power through the tree of knowledge that is Kephra our Lord supreme.

For it is in his name that we quench our thirst to damn the actions of of the non-believers! Fear not of losing sight for sight comes from within. Is deed not greater than the power of the word! Or is power of the word our salvation through these dark and wretched times.

Come Bobby, walk with me as we gather armies of those who too, will gather their own armies. For in the name of Kephra, keeper of the book, I bound you, go forth, and openingly seek vengeance against these heathens !

Let foul deed rot in the bowels of damnation! Let those who seek to cast aspersions be devoured by colour of blue race that shall become them ! Magnificently and foolishly setting themselves apart openly for our wonderment that such foolishness shall forever define them and never leave their wretched skins.

Hail Kephra, oh lord of the book, silent and unanimous are we in our solidarity to your greater power!
Spare the stupidity of those amongst us that dwell Not in logic and grateful understanding but in greed and hunger. emblazon their idiocy through writings that shall become us !
Until they creep away to the rocks from whence they came!

This secret Bobby, this secret you have surely shown to be worthy of receipt. For you have proven fielty to Kephra and I shall indeed willingly share. But not this moment as work and commitment to others awaits me this morn. Go, go now and ready yourself for a great awakening as shall I that indeed metal chariots that I long to banish from this existence that I have been forced to adopt shall be forever banished one day.

And when our doors are looked, and light is dimmed, food is eaten and loved ones cared for Then, THEN Bobby, I shall indeed impart the knowledge that has consumed me!

Offline Bobby

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 999
  • Likes: 39
  • "I walk slowly, but I never walk backward" Lincoln
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 03:10:55 AM »
  Master Dean, as I rest in the chilled yet comfortable surroundings of my meager place of dwelling, I long for the coming of the great yellow star in the morning!  It's light that turneth the skies blue, but just for awhile before the great silver winged birds streak across the heavens leaving them looking dull with grey unnatural colors.  I fear that I loseth hope for that very brightness that makes one want to explore, to the ends of this very earth, every mystery that hideth from mine eyes.

  I ponder the far off enchantments of your homeland.  Whereth ye spendth thou evenings with one's bride.  With the protective howling of mans beast helps to bring forth the comfort and safety in the evening whilst thee share great words of wisdom with the children of your clan!

  As I wondered over the scroll ye have unselfishly prepared for me, after I braisingly ask for enchantments and spells which I have no earthly claim to, I find I am truly honored with your most telling response.  I agree that a single deed is much greater than many words.  Intent to help is far more heroic than the partaking of unseemly acts! Therefore as we navigate through the deceit and misgivings of many who seeketh the ancient knowledge, that we ourselves have been shown by Kephra the great keeper of such knowledge, we must be diligent in our vetting!

  Ye must at all cost discourage these scoundrels, who prey on the uninformed ones, seeking the wonderous benefits of this magical silver elixir from leading them into a permanent blue world from which there is no escape.  The Argyrians as they are known throughout the lands are not seekers of the truest knowledge of this suspended silver tonic.  They are but poor misguided souls, doomed to wonder this world in the flesh of a blue Gin.  Even tho their linage is not from such a spirit, they are doomed no less!

  I now bring to a close this humbled response to the Great Dean, of the clan of Imagers.  Creators of the lasting visions of man and beast!  Who's very talents capture the colors the elixir of this silver drink .  I admire the one with Ye talents over such a mystical art!

  But we must always remember, lest we forget, the one who is the forefather of that which we all pursue with undying loyalty the magical and fleeting art of brewing the elixir of health and wellbeing...Cheers to Great the Kephra, Keeper of the Knowledge!

  Good Day
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 06:31:18 AM by Bobby »
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"  Abraham Lincoln

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7636
  • Likes: 114
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 03:29:10 AM »
OMG. you guys are cracking me up!
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Dean

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 507
  • Likes: 38
    • Social SilverTron Facebook Portal
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 11:05:08 AM »
For Suth!

Bobby, Lest I have not an oasis before me!
Truth in scripture hath coveted us this day!

For it is true! Hail Kephra! keeper of all knowledge, All powerful Master from our great homeland Silvertron!
Where Argyrians hath no place, like a burden we seek to banish from our very thoughts! That we prey that they may one day join us, anointed not with falsehood from brown or colored bottle. Can it be so that ye hath spoken willingly and favorably this day. Despite my humble status, as servant NE disciple!

What honor thou hast bestowed upon us with such caring greatness that we endeavor to mimic with others of
our intention and belief in your image.

Bobby, your urgency to learn is a precious gift, lose it not my child, for without it you aspire to nothing!
Must doubt now surely wither and die, crippled by the sanctity that has been written for 3000 years before us. That the Gods truly walk among us. Ne that THE God has chosen this, our forum, to reveal himself selflessly day after day!

Run my child, run like the wind, emblazoned with fire cleaned anode held with vice like grip and protected with glove or blackened pincer from stores that you keep outside your living spaces. Where no child can reach behind locked and covered door. To the magical place that scripture has brought to bear where temperature greater than the rising blue skies and lowly covered rooms that you call home shall provide. Where food is sacrificed freely and heat applied from uncovered vent with dial of power that increases immeasurably with each and every turn!  For it is said Bobby, when strength of solution shall be greater than this that can freely touch your lips without dilution HOLD FAST BOBBY! Beyond 20, beyond 30, Ne at 40 parts in 1 million all anodes that befall us must surely be purified this way. To rid your solution of the impurity that Kephra our Lord and master has decreed shall cause you turbid times! Where lowly power from your contraption may seek to run free beyond the marker of 10, Thou shalt not use wire BOBBY! WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE!
for this power doth not suffice or quench our needs! For Kephra our great Lord has asserted and thou shalt follow willingly ! Lest you be cast out with blown up flashing lights and solution that doth not mirror the solution in his image!

This clause doth begin my teachings handed down that I shall entrust to you my child.

Go now, Find your loved ones and speak of this to them. Let them also learn and understand......

I leave you with this morsel.
Cleanliness is surely next to Godliness.
Ensure always that your vessel be pure and anointed with water as pure as the heat that comes from the Fireball you speak of that rises each morning. That without such diligence, turbid times may surely follow.
For it is this that begins the lifting of your blindness AND THE BLINDNESS OF THOSE AROUND YOU!

Here end'ith the first lesson!
   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 11:13:12 AM by Dean »

Offline WayneInPHX

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Likes: 6
  • Witty saying goes here... Ok--> "42"
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2017, 09:25:14 AM »
Epic , guys... ;D

This could takes some time...


Lemme guess, One or both of you are into renaissance faires...

Most of us don’t listen with the intent to understand.  We listen with the intent to reply.  -  From a TED Talk

"I've decided I'm not old. I'm 25 plus shipping & handling!"

Offline Bobby

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 999
  • Likes: 39
  • "I walk slowly, but I never walk backward" Lincoln
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 07:00:21 PM »
Nay I say nay to the man in the land of PHX who calls himself Wayne!  I no nothing of such things. Renascence fairs ye say?  I knowth of fair damsels, but non in distress.  If it were so I would smit such a scoundrel with my bear hands!  I needth nothing else because he is not a true man but a worm that I will trample beneath my boot!

  It was unintended this hi jacking of ye post.  This calculator you speakth of is beyond my understanding.  And the powder it referth to seems magical in its abilities.  Abilities which I have yet to control.  But I say yea, I will not let this strange dust defeat me.  With the help of this calculator I may yet command this dust.  By all means continueth with your work, but beware of that which makes one peculiar!  As this would be a great loss to the ones who seek the magic of the silver water. 

  Go swiftly now Wayne in PHX and work in peace!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 12:49:58 AM by Bobby »
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"  Abraham Lincoln

Offline simyacı

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Likes: 0
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2020, 04:18:52 PM »
After doing a lot of calculation work regarding my Maltodextrin calculator, I realize that my "comments' tags in it represent some decent info. SO, here it is:

A single molecule of Glucose has TWO binding points in its molecular chain.  1 Molecule of glucose reduces 2 atoms of silver oxide.
Although Maltodextrin can have 3 to 17 glucose molecules in each Maltodextrin molecule, ONLY the last one in the chain of the Maltodextrin molecule is available to reduce.

Maltodextrin is a weird animal.  It does not have a constant molecular weight from one molecule to the next.  That’s not to say that a bag of it in your hand is magically changing before your eyes.  Each molecule can have a different length of glucose chains ranging from  3 to 17.  Because of this we need to “guess” at the weight.  Different sources would appear to have chains within a certain range. When you buy a new bag, it may vary greatly from your previous stock, requiring a adjustment. Because of this, I would NOT mix old with new.  For the same reasons, you may find that two different sources “taste” significantly sweeter/less sweet.  It is that chain length thing that will be the cause. Just remember that each time you purchase some, adjustments may be needed.

Maltodextrin consists of D-glucose units connected in chains of variable length. The glucose units are primarily linked with α(1→4) glycosidic bonds. Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units in length.  Only the last molecule in the chain actually does the reduction.

A real laboratory derivation of the Dextrose equivalent requires testing a sample.  Though it is a fairly simple process, the mathematical formulas are complex and equipment needed is expensive.

Whether 3, 17 or anything in between, only the last molecule in the each chain reduces 2 silver ions, meaning that each Maltodextrin molecule, regardless of how many Glucose molecules exist in it, can only reduce two atoms.

As you can see from sequence below, The midpoint is 10, and 8 is slightly less than halfway between the mid and lowest molecule number.  Seems a reasonable WAG to start with.


# of Molecules

   17
   16
   15
   14
   13
   12
   11
   10     ← midpoint
     9
     8     ← good starting point
     7
     6
     5
     4
     3

Hello, as a result, how much maltodextrin should be put for 1 lt?

Offline Gene

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1183
  • Likes: 85
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2020, 05:43:27 PM »
Kephra's equation to determine the weight of maltodextrin to use (and this works for ANY malto, regardless it being mixed bag or fixed DE number, including CarboGain) is

PPM * Volume(liters) * 0.014

So say you're making 80PPM and a liter of it, you'd need the following amount of malto to guarantee a full reduction to Colloidal Silver:

80 * 1 * 0.014 = 1.12 grams

As Kephra has said, some here have used less and gotten away with it but in the grand scheme of things, WHY risk it?  A bit more malto is NOT going to hurt anything.  If anything, it'll add more stability to the Colloidal Silver (longevity).

If you haven't bought any malto yet, you might look to a home beer/wine brewing supply shop.  Malto is used in some beer recipes to impart a creamy mouth-feel to the beer. I bought a pound in the US from such a shop. I don't think I paid much more than $3 for it.  Thats a many lifetime supply unless you're making swimming pools fully of Colloidal Silver (wink).

Given the amount you need, I use plain old Karo for reducing that which I intend to gel cap immediately after production.

Its not that you can't use the continuous production method (adding ALL the reducer up front before you start the run) and simply that Karo isn't a good stabilizer for PPM's over about 20. Thing is, it'll reduce fine at higher PPMs (I make 120 regularly).  The gelatine is necessary though to both coat the particles so they get through the stomach unaffected for near 100% absorption AND to work as a seriously good stabilizer.

Offline Turbidaceous

  • Participant
  • **
  • Posts: 400
  • Likes: 1
  • Living in the UK
Re: Maltodextrin tidbits
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2020, 07:43:33 PM »
I went with 1.2 grams for 1L 80ppm and it seems great to me.