Author Topic: Question about calculations and maltodextrin  (Read 388 times)

Offline flavapor

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Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« on: October 09, 2019, 03:52:24 AM »
 First questions:  I want to know if the formula for maltodextrin is the same as karo syrup to make the reducer and if the same amount is used in reducing or the ratio is different?  Also, does the amount used change based on the amount of ml you are making and the ppm?

Second question:  Based on what Kephra wrote below, would one calculate the formula if using bullion, heat, and stirrer the same way if wanting 40ppm?  Would the formula be 40min*40ppm*0.015mA?  If not can you please tell me the correct one and what I did wrong.  I doubled the mins from below because I am assuming the 20 min at 15mA would need to be doubled.

Quote
"Calculate the required time to make 20 ppm based on the formula that 1 milligram of silver will enter the water for each 15 milliAmp minutes of process time.  15 milliAmp-minutes could be 1 mA for 15 minutes, 2 mA for 7.5 minutes, 15 mA for 1 minute, etc.

20 ppm is 20 milligrams of silver per liter.  So for example, if you only wanted to make 250ml, you would only need 5 milligrams of silver, and 5 * 15 milliAmp-minutes of current.

When the required time has elapsed, turn off the power, remove the electrodes, and add 2 drops of the corn syrup solution to the water and heat it to at least 140 degrees F.  In a few minutes, it will change from crystal clear and colorless to crystal clear but yellow colored.  This color change is the proof that the ionic silver has been converted to true colloidal silver.

Time required for 1 liter of 20 ppm Colloidal silver at various constant currents:


Current mA      Time minutes
  3                  100
  5                  60
  6                  50
  10                 30
  15                 20


For quarts instead of liters, decrease time by 5%

You can calculate the required time for other amounts and currents from this formula:

minutes = milliliters * ppm * 0.015 / milliAmps.
OR
minutes = liters * ppm *15 / milliamps "



Offline Gene

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2019, 04:57:38 AM »
The problem with maltodextrin is that it has a DE (dextrose equivalent) rating which relates a unit of measure of it to a unit of measure of glucose (dextrose - same sugar, 2 different names).  The malto number always indicates that its less good of a reducing agent than glucose is (but a much better stabilizer if you're making over 20PPM and choosing not to gel cap it).  The problem lies in the fact that any malto we can buy is devoid of a DE equivalency as its "mixed bag" given its main uses don't need it. Without a DE number you have no clue how much you actually need to reduce properly.

Kephra provided a formula that will work for any mixed bag malto you get your hands on.  That formula is as follows:

PPM * Volume * 0.014 where volume is in liters

So as an example, you have 1 liter and have 40PPM to reduce so...

40 * 1 * 0.014 = 0.56 grams of mixed bag malto

For Karo, Kephra's formula (1:1 karo/vodka)

PPM * volume(ml) /16000

So if you have 20PPM and 1000ml, you'd need to add 1.25 drops of dilute karo (I always go a little higher for safe area like round up and add another drop - it won't hurt anything).

Not only does the karo/vodka thin it so its easy to use an eyedropper, the alcohol prevents the karo from evolving life - it'll stay good in a tightly closed dropper bottle even on the table basically forever. A  little 2oz dropper bottle full will last damn near a lifetime unless you're making swimming pools full of colloidal silver (wink).

I do need to warn you about something though.  At room temp (thats 75F, NOT 68F), you can only dissolve maybe 22PPM of silver in water.  Beyond this at this temp, you will start precipitating out the silver oxide which will now stay silver oxide forever because it won't reduce because it needs to be in solution to do so which it no longer is.  You may still have 21-22PPM of dissolved silver oxide.  In other words, if you're making 40PPM at room temp, that would be bad.  You'd get to 21-22ppm and the remaining 18-19 PPM will stay silver oxide even after reduction and worse yet, the particle size may be small enough that the silver oxide floats in water for a very long time before settling out.

At 150F, the dissolution limit for silver oxide is about 40PPM.

If you're making more than 20PPM you need to process at a higher temp and you need to add the reducing agent at the beginning of the run so you get continuous reduction so you never exceed the solubility limit for the temp you're running at.  The complication is that to get a reducing agent to reduce quickly enough, you need to be running at a higher temp (say 125-150F).  At cooler temps, reducing agents work but slow as a snail.

I routinely make 120-160PPM colloidal silver using the method addressed above.  Then, after your run is done, because the last few minutes of IS you made hasn't reduced yet, you need to remove the jar from the heat, put a cover or cap on it and let it sit 10-15 minute for all the IS to reduce to colloidal silver BEFORE you'd choose to gel cap it if you want to.

Some suggest adding the gelatine at the beginning but I prefer to add it after the run is done simply because adding it at the beginning slows the reduction process down and after maybe an hour you'll have to stop the run, flame clean the anode and continue (it gets a bit gunked up).  To each his own. Whatever works best for you.  There are lots of ways to do it.

The equation to calculate run time is more correctly referred to as Faraday's law of electrolysis.  For silver, 15ma minutes of current (15ma for 1 minute, 1ma for 15min,...) will pull 1milligram of silver into solution.

So to calculate run time its simply

PPM * volume (liters) * 15 / <the current you're running at>
   or
PPM * volume (liters) * 0.015/<current you're running at in AMPS>
  or as you also said
PPM * volume (ml) * 0.015/<current you're running in ma>

The last equation to me is confusing because you're taking a ratio of current to current which provides the multiplier and you're using amps/milliamps and then because milliamps are 0.001amps, that cancels the volume in ml to basically be liters. Why bother?

40 * 1 (liter) * 15/10 as an example is 60 minutes
40 * 1 (liter) * 0.015/0.010 as an example is 60 minutes
40 * 1000ml * 0.015/10 as an example is 60 minutes

See how it works. THIS is why you need a constant current. If you don't know what current you're running at you won't be able to compute how long to run for the PPM you're wanting..

The other thing to watch for is to pick a current thats properly chosen for the size of your anode.  If its silver wire, you may well only be able to push it to 5-6ma before you start running into trouble at higher temp and if at room temp, it might be more like 2-3ma since at lower temps, things go more slowly.  If you've got a 1ozt bullion bar, you might be able to do 5-6ma at "room temp". At 150F+ you should be able to push it to 15-20ma.  Though it doesn't need to be said, the higher the current you can safely run with, the faster what you're making is done.

If you run at too high a current, some of the created silver oxide will precipitate rather than dissolve. You really don't want to do this (wink).

Just to reiterate though, if you're making higher than 20PPM, you NEED to add the reducing agent amount for the PPM you're making (plus a little for safe area - it won't hurt anything) at the beginning before you start the run and you need to be running more like 125-150F to make sure the reducing agent reduces fast enough that you never accumulate more than 30 or so PPM in solution before its reduced.  At 150F, you've got time and at that temp, reducers reduce quickly (minutes, not seconds).




Offline flavapor

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2019, 04:22:53 PM »
Thank you Gene for the detailed response, however with regard to the malto, if I want to make 40ppm uncapped and have it last the only info I found was 1/2 tsp per liter and there was no mention of dilution so does that go in dry?  From what I have read here karo is not the way to go uncapped over 20 ppm. 

How would I accomplish that?  My mom developed a bad case of scabies or something under her breast and her Dr gave her permithian (sp) to treat it but it has not gotten better.   I told her to get some silver and she picked up some 40ppm Sovereign Silver 40ppm.  It was a 1 or two oz bottle but the difference she has seen in just 3 days is quite remarkable.  She has used it all up already since I told her to use it every few hours topically. 

I told her I would make some and mail it to her but I can not make 40ppm ionic (I dont think from what I learned here) and even so, I would think uncapped actual colloidal silver would be even more remarkable to finish up this nasty, infected, inflammed skin condition. 

Offline Gene

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2019, 01:15:04 AM »
I use that malto formula I listed.  I make 80PPM naked just to have a quart of it around (reducing with malto because yes, karo, if you're NOT gel-capping isn't a good enough stabilizer to keep the stuff good over 20PPM) and I've had quarts of it lying around for years and its still good.

You are correct about IS though. Since the solubility limit of IS in water (dissolved silver oxide) at room temp (75F) is only about 22PPM, at best, IF you're lucky you'll be able to make 20PPM but ultraviolet will reduce it over time which is probably why sovereign and others come in dark brown bottles, if even any of these health store silver products are anything more than plain water.  40PPM Sovereign? That'd be a nope unless they're doing something funny. The only sovereign I've ever seen is water white (which has to be IS) and listed as 10PPM and yeah, expensive for what it is.

You also have to take into account the placebo effect.  If something isn't working and someone tells you to try something else because it will and you do, you WANT it to work and the human psyche is insanely powerful regardless many don't think so and that stimulates your own body to fix it fast, not whatever you're using. Human will is a very powerful thing.

You might send her some 20-40PPM gel capped too.  Many of us here have found that though we expected the gelatine to interfere with the action of the silver particles for topical use, from testing (I did too) it seems to work rather well and then too, coating an area (AFTER it stops bleeding - wink) with a couple coats of gel-capped, it seems to work like a conformal bandage to keep the nasties out.  You'd need to recoat it probably once a day or after a shower but I doutb many times a day.  Your mileage may vary but its worth a try for your mom.

Depending on the temp you choose to run, that would dictate a maximum current so you raise the PPM of silver oxide in the water slowly enough that the reducing agent gets it done before you go over that 20-40PPM line.  Obviously if you're making 20PPM, at room temp, you're good for the whole run and the reducing agent can be added after its complete.  For greater than 20PPM, you need to add it at the beginning of the run to keep the total PPM below whatever limit it is at whatever temp you're using.  At 75F, its 20PPM, at 150F, its 40PPM.  Also, the cooler you run, the longer it takes for the reducing agent to reduce.

Kephra said a long time ago that he makes gallons of 20PPM, dumps them into a gallon milk jug, adds the reducing sugar (karo), heats it to about 120F and lets it sit and its done reducing in a couple HOURS! At least thats what I'm remembering.  Thats WAY too slow if you're making over 20PPM.  No I haven't tried it to see if he's correct or not but I've noticed at 150F, karo and malto seem to reduce in minutes to 10's of minutes.

Also, malto reduced colloidal silver will have a darker color compared to the same PPM reduced otherwise (karo) simply due to the long glucose chains malto molecules are. I routinely use karo to make 120-160PPM I immediately gel cap. Its not that it doesn't work and simply that it doesn't stay stable for very long if left uncapped. Capped, it seems to last forever.

Offline flavapor

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2019, 02:47:33 AM »
  Gene,

Again thank you for the reply.  I dont have a mathematical mind so this is difficult for me to follow.  I do have a heated magnetic stirrer so adding heat is not a problem for me. 

I am sending her some 320 ppm capped as well.  I was going to suggest she take it internally diluted. She could also dilute some and make a spray out of it.   I made the 40 ppm with karo today uncapped for external use.  She will use it up very quickly on this rash.  I am not sure it will remain stable, but if it does not does it turn back to ionic or is it something else?

I am still confused with the malto question.  I get that it would be 56 grams, but is that 56 grams of dry powder added like the gelatin?  That seems like such a large amount to add in dry form.  Is it 56 grams diluted into a liter of water and then a drop or two added?

You may be right about the brand of silver she bought, but it looked like sovereign brand and it was 40 ppm.  Either way, I cant see her spending all that $$ on a one oz bottle when I can make her some. 


Offline Gene

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2019, 03:46:20 AM »
Your karo reduced 40PPM naked will last a while. I actually had a jar of it and IIRC (this was 80PPM) it lasted easily a year but yeah, use it up quickly as it eventually goes bad.  If you use malto, it'll last a lot longer. I've had malto reduced naked around for years and its still good.

Regarding the malto, are you referencing my 1 liter example? If so, the result is 0.56 grams, not 56 (a little over half of one gram).  If not, explain what you're doing and I'll take a look.

Other than I think your calculations are a wee bit "off", yes, that would be malto powder by weight.  I just measure it out, dump it into the water along with the electrolyte at the beginning of a run, stir till dissolved (maybe 30 seconds) and start the cell up.

Offline flavapor

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2019, 11:54:24 AM »
Thank you Gene, now I understand.  That makes much more sense to me.  Just over half a gram is much different than 56 grams. 

What is IIRC? 

I appreciate your input on this and helping me to understand.  I dont want to just follow a recipe, I would like to better understand the hows and whys of it all. 

Offline Gene

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2019, 02:28:06 PM »
Yeah, there's lots of "seat of the pants" kind of stuff you learn over time.  Don't discount the procedures outlined here and in kephra's notebook. We all started there and they all work famously. Its just that as you gain more knowledge and experience, you find the sweet spot for how you prefer to do things as is typical in life and you go with it.

As a physics instructor I had in high school used to say, "I'm going to teach you the proper way to do <whatever> and then once you get it, I'm going to show you the easy way". Hey, you gotta crawl before you walk.

IIRC = "If I (Remember -or- Recall) Correctly"
IMHO = "In My Humble Opinion"
...

They're just accepted email/posting abbreviations (there's a whole list of them but nor formal definition you can go looking for - you just kind of pick them up over time).

And of course the ever popular (though rarely used here for obvious reasons), LMAOROTF (laughing my arse off, rolling on the floor) - hehe.

I'm happy you get it with making colloidal silver. All the information is here on the forum but <search> kind of sucks making it hard to find things if they're not in Kephra's notebook section.

The trick is, when you find something you deem useful (formula, warning,...) write it down on a piece of paper or save it in a text file on your PC so you can refer back to it when needed.  I have a list of equations to compute the correct amount of gelatine, maltodextrin, 1:1 diluted karo, the correct formula for making 1 molar sodium carbonate,...  Something like that.  Weeding through all the information here (which goes back maybe a decade or more) can be a bit daunting so when you find something, write it down somewhere you can refer to it.

Online Mjock3

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Re: Question about calculations and maltodextrin
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2019, 10:12:09 PM »
Thanks to both of you for all the info on this thread.  :)