Author Topic: Calculations for anode surface area current when only using heat currents?  (Read 500 times)

Offline Turbidaceous

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I have the calculations saved for how many miliamps to run based on surface area whether cold or hot, but what about when you are only using the water agitation from the convection currents you get from a hot plate without stirring? I have heard recently you should use lower current to ensure you don't exceed the production rate which the heat current is able to wash away what has been produced.

So, is there a rule of thumb or calculation to know a good maximum current to use, based on your anode size (maybe a set temperature being required for all calculations if need be) to have a good assurance that the convection currents will allow proper dissolution of the ions and produce a good quality Colloidal Silver without the need for additional stirring?

I am planning on connecting 2 one ounce bullion bars to increase surface area. I heard the average "15ma no problem with stirring when using bullion" but then I hear "10ma works with convection currents as long as you don't exceed dissolution capacity" leading me to the desire to know how much current is "safe" when you have heat currents but no stirring?


Offline cfnisbet

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Use the same current; it should be fine if the anode is big enough. Lower it a bit if you wish; lower currents just take longer, the product is normally as good or better.

Offline Gene

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The way to find the upper limit for any anode size (current) is to gradually increase the current as you have the cell running and look for "smoke" coming off the anode - whispy noticable plumes of silver oxide basically.  The point where this starts to appear is just above the maximum safe current you can run at.

I'd suggest backing it down maybe 20% in current from here to be safe.

I found that I can push a 14 gauge 3.5" silver wire all the way to 10ma at 150F processing temp with just convection current stirring, which is great because thats over 3x faster production rate than 3ma.  As it erodes however, I have to back the current down to compensate for a smaller diameter anode.

My Colloidal Silver comes out perfect.  I make up to 120PPM, one time 160PPM.

Do a little seat of the pants experimentation to find how far you can push it and stay a safe distance under that wire. Another reason for the guard band is that as the anode erodes, that line of max current drop.  20% guard band should be safe enough but when the anode starts looking pitted or a lot smaller than what you started with, its probably time to do that experiment again if you choose to continue using it, to guarantee you're not too close to the wire.  Its probably even a good idea each time you set your cell up and start it to wait a little while and then use a flashlight to look to see if you find whispy smoke (better safe than sorry).

The smoke means that the production of silver oxide is outpacing max dissolution speed at whatever temp you're running and that means a goodly amount of that silver oxide will precipitate out and thats not good.

I really think, given all the various operating parameters for the cell, the best way to ascertain maximum safe current is empirically.  I doubt an equation could be formulated that accounts for all the various parameters. Just eyeball it and back off about 20% and you should be fine.

Offline Toenail

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This seems to me to be good information.  I noticed that I did not get the wisps at 5ma when I ran a stirrer.  Does this mean I could run the amperage higher?  When I ran 5 ma and went to 40ppm I noticed blackening on the Cathode.  IMO this was plating but I am not sure.  With the same setup and running 20ppm I did not get the blackening.   This was when I ran a silver anode and cathode and no stirrer.
Does anyone have information on the affects of size ratio between the anode and cathode.  I am considering running a very large anode and a small Cathode to see what happens.  IMO a stirrer is almost a necessity if running at 5 ma or above.   

I am very interested in comments and appreciate the experience everyone has making Colloidal Silver.

Offline Gene

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The wisps are undissolved silver oxide. If its minor, they may dissolve but its not worth taking the risk.  If you're not seeing them when using a stirrer, try increasing the current and see where you get.  The temperature you're running your cell at will affect the speed of dissolution as can be expected.

I run at 10ma with a 3.5" long 14 gauge copper wire at 150F and I normally make 120PPM and until the wire gets really thin where its time to change it out, I don't start getting any wisps and what I make is fine. I am NOT using a stirrer.

You want the anode as big as you can afford.

The cathode is used to adjust the voltage across the cell which must be greater than 10V.

I use a length of 24 gauge solid copper wire (insulated) that I've stripped about 1.5" of insulation off the end that goes into the cell.  This affords me a fine adjustability where there's still a long enough length of copper in the water that for running at higher temp (me, 150F normally as I'm making higher PPM) even with a little evaporation, the cathode is NOT going to disconnect from the water.

Everyone seems to start with 14 gauge house wire and the issue here is that you barely have to glance the surface of the water to get the cell to the required voltage and thats touchy. After having a little evaporation once and the cathode came out of the water where I had no clue what I made, I thought about it, changed to the thin wire and now I never have less than about 1/2" of submerged cathode, regardless what current I'm running at. If you get THIS much evaporation, something else is wrong over a run.

Others here have followed suit with the thinner wire.

The solubility limit of silver oxide in water at room temp (75F, not colder) is maybe not quite 22PPM.  If you're running "cold", you have to make sure that whatever reducer you've added (for higher PPM's you must add it up front), it reduces quickly enough that you never exceed the solubility limit of 22PPM of silver oxide or else you're going to start precipitating out the silver oxide and that wouldn't be good.  Never allow the rate of production of silver oxide to exceed the rate of reduction or you will coast over the wire and thats not good.

You could heat the water on the stove or in a microwave to hot enough you can barely hold it (around 150F) and start with that. Over a 2 hour run in a breeze free area, it may not even cool all the way down to room temp.

The other thing you have to be careful about is that say your reducer takes 15 minutes to reduce, after the run is finished, you have to give it 15 minutes plus before the reduction of what you made is finished.  I always add a couple extra drops of reducer for good measure once the run is finished. It won't hurt in the least.

Are you using the prescribed 20 drops of 1M sodium carbonate per liter of water?

I've always seen a little black on the cathode but at the end of a run when you wipe the cathode off, its not very much.  Copper also won't stay bright - it'll darken a bit with use - thats just surface copper oxide and nothing to worry about.

Offline Turbidaceous

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I have officially ordered this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0019MSXGG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&th=1

I have had several Amazon screwups in the last few days revolving around me trying to buy more Repsol Distilled water. It is marketed for batteries but I tested it when I first ordered it and the bottles all were 0ppm and it is actual distilled not de-ionized. But they have really messed me around recently and I have had credit after credit. Luckily the water is sold by and dispatched by Amazon so I have chucked an extra 5L worth using some of the credit and I had an unexpected referral from a company which coupled with my remaining credit, has bought this hotplate essentially free... So when I get paid next week I might try to see if I can afford to get the two 1oz bullion and connect them as I documented in the above image and then I should be good to have a bash at making a higher ppm. I may try 80ppm by calculating and dumping in the electrolyte, the malto to cover 80ppm and then just babysit the multi-meter measuring current as usual. At least this way even if I step away the malto should be able to handle any accidental slightly too much ppm strength if I wander off for a few mins.

I have 0.4mm copper wire for my cathode now. I was using a strand from CAT-5E cable but since it is composed of smaller super thin wires I had to keep winding it and I didn't like the idea of a strand breaking off into the water or something, so I bought straight 0.4mm copper wire.

Am I right in assuming making 80ppm using just the right amount of malto based on the calculations will be perfectly stable without needing a separate capping agent like cinnamon?

edit: here's a better more accurate image of the plan, hopefully the slots I will make will be thin enough so that they can tapre down thinner so it takes more force to bash them together for a tighter fit, then use a hammer to bash the ends to close the outer ends down close to the rest of the body of the silver to get a good solid connection:

« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:15:55 PM by Turbidaceous »

Offline tlcruisin

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this is just a mock-up, but what about something like this?  - attached photo-
(with two 1oz. bars....before finding this forum, I was playing around with 9 volts and cut this in half to make the cathode and anode...not knowing better)
I would still twist the 2 copper sections much tighter in a vise while the connections to the silver are already very tight-
to the point that the silver and copper act as one when i hold the copper straight out

Offline Gene

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That won't work for a cathode because you want the anode submerged as far as you can go (most surface area under the water) BUT you want the anode as close to the surface (least submerged) you can get.

Using the electrolyte (follow the procedure, read all numbered articles), you adjust the cell voltage to greater than 10V by lowering or lifting the cathode once you've established the constant current you're choosing to run at.

Also, its not a good idea to bring anything copper attached to the anode close to the water. Even a little condensation that creates a current path into the water will have you pulling copper ions into the water.  Copper in the body other than for trace is highly toxic not only to humans but to all aquatic life.

The best bet is to get a length of silver bullion wire and fasten the bullion bar to this and then you can use an alligator clip or similar to secure the wire to submerge the bullion bar as far into the water as you can go.

Its 100% fine to use copper as the cathode as nothing is pulled off the cathode.

Use a copper cathode and one half of the bullion bar as the anode and run at maybe 5ma or less and you'll be fine.  Also, you want the anode and cathode around 1.5" apart. A little farther is OK but no closer.

Offline tlcruisin

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my bad....i missed the part where cfnisbet used an alligator clip in the "how to" to hold the anode in place and
was duplicating Turbidaceous in his video with the copper holding the silver bar.
so if i get some silver wire, i could hang these two halves -like i have them in the pic- for the anode and basically
have them completely submerged for max surface area? or would it be better to slot and attach them together
like the depiction in the above post?

Offline bcboy

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I have the calculations saved for how many miliamps to run based on surface area whether cold or hot, but what about when you are only using the water agitation from the convection currents you get from a hot plate without stirring? I have heard recently you should use lower current to ensure you don't exceed the production rate which the heat current is able to wash away what has been produced.

So, is there a rule of thumb or calculation to know a good maximum current to use, based on your anode size (maybe a set temperature being required for all calculations if need be) to have a good assurance that the convection currents will allow proper dissolution of the ions and produce a good quality colloidal silver without the need for additional stirring?

I am planning on connecting 2 one ounce bullion bars to increase surface area. I heard the average "15ma no problem with stirring when using bullion" but then I hear "10ma works with convection currents as long as you don't exceed dissolution capacity" leading me to the desire to know how much current is "safe" when you have heat currents but no stirring?


Did you try this and if so how many milliamps can you use before you see the bars start to smoke?
Thanks for your time.
Kimball
:D One day at a time.

Offline Gene

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If you're gonna use an alligator clip, it cannot be IN the water or overly near it. Those things are usually tin or nickel plated, either of which is toxic.  If you hang the bars with 99.9% pure silver bullion wire (no less pure) and there's maybe an inch of silver wire above the bars to grab hold of with the alligator clip, thats fine and yes, your silver bars can be completely submerged.

The rule of thumb here is NOTHING other than silver as an anode IN the water for your own safety.  1/4" would be too close. 1/2" you're probably OK so a 1" silver wire length gives you enough to affix it to or run it through a hole in a lid and grab it with the alligator clip outside the cell (top side).  That'll work for the cathode also though adjusting it could be a little touchy with having to squeeze the alligator clip and move the wire up or down without dropping it into the cell while reading the cell voltage.  I'm sure you'll think of something.

Also, use THIN wire - say 24 gauge give or take. The less surface area the better and with thin wire, you get a good adjustment range without having the wire barely glancing the surface of the water.

Offline tlcruisin

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great, thanks for the reply.
besides bumping the thread for answers to the double bullion bar sketch, i wanted to terminate my mild nagging
regret of taking a hacksaw to a perfectly good troy ounce bar haha
i do plan to run the wire through the top of the cell and have the alligator clip outside
and also with the cathode, i was thinking of having a bend and twist a short section of another piece of copper
so as to form a "T" an inch or so above the clip....that way there is no possibility of the thin copper cathode from
dropping in while adjusting the level if, or when, i fumble

Offline cfnisbet

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...mild nagging
regret of taking a hacksaw to a perfectly good troy ounce bar haha...
That's OK, but don't use a hacksaw.

Get a small hammer and use a sharp cold chisel. You won't lose any silver filings that way.

Offline tlcruisin

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come to think of it, i didn't use a hacksaw...i had just thought about it initially.
i scored it several times with a knife i don't care for and then folded it over in a vise
but i like the cold chisel method better
i'm not used to working with this soft of metal...mainly mild steel
thanks