Author Topic: mA Current Variation  (Read 388 times)

Offline gkar

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mA Current Variation
« on: July 08, 2020, 03:26:42 AM »
Hi,

During making my first batch yesterday, I noticed that the multimeter reading was constantly varying, by small amounts. Is this normal? Or should it have a stable mA reading?

My meter was fluctuating between ~3.17-3.6mA, during the production cycle. If it should remain absolutely stable, could the electrolyte be at fault? I read WGPeters stating that one of the functions of sodium carbonate is to assist with current control. I'm sure I made it according to specs, & amount: 10 drops for 0.5L.
Thanks
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Offline Neofizz

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2020, 07:15:49 AM »
There are factors that can make it vary but I don't think it's your electrolyte.

Expect variance if you're not using a constant current generator and/or set it up properly for the task.

If you're stirring, the water level is varying the amount of submerged electrodes which can cause the amps to vary.

As the process continues the solution gets slightly more conductive as well.

Before I got the now extinct SilverTron I dealt with it by twiddling a variable resistor, averaging numbers and eventually saying, 'close enough'.
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

Offline cfnisbet

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2020, 09:04:56 AM »
Hi,

During making my first batch yesterday, I noticed that the multimeter reading was constantly varying, by small amounts. Is this normal? Or should it have a stable mA reading?

My meter was fluctuating between ~3.17-3.6mA, during the production cycle. If it should remain absolutely stable, could the electrolyte be at fault? I read WGPeters stating that one of the functions of sodium carbonate is to assist with current control. I'm sure I made it according to specs, & amount: 10 drops for 0.5L.
Thanks
This is completely normal for a standard constant-current supply.

The currents we are using are very low, far lower than those anticipated by the producers of the PSUs that we use. You should use the average or the lower figures to calculate your processing current, as this will give the minimum ppm that you have produced.

Only the SilverTron holds the current rock-solid at the power set, because it samples the current many times a second. It is theoretically possible to make a circuit to do this for a "normal" PSU, but the costs would certainly not be as low as we pay for a PSU from eBay.

Your PSU C-C circuit is a completely acceptable solution for all uses.

Offline gkar

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2020, 07:39:17 PM »
Hi,

During making my first batch yesterday, I noticed that the multimeter reading was constantly varying, by small amounts. Is this normal? Or should it have a stable mA reading?

My meter was fluctuating between ~3.17-3.6mA, during the production cycle. If it should remain absolutely stable, could the electrolyte be at fault? I read WGPeters stating that one of the functions of sodium carbonate is to assist with current control. I'm sure I made it according to specs, & amount: 10 drops for 0.5L.
Thanks
This is completely normal for a standard constant-current supply.

The currents we are using are very low, far lower than those anticipated by the producers of the PSUs that we use. You should use the average or the lower figures to calculate your processing current, as this will give the minimum ppm that you have produced.

Only the SilverTron holds the current rock-solid at the power set, because it samples the current many times a second. It is theoretically possible to make a circuit to do this for a "normal" PSU, but the costs would certainly not be as low as we pay for a PSU from eBay.

Your PSU C-C circuit is a completely acceptable solution for all uses.
Thanks for your excellent, thorough explanation to remove any uncertainty I had on the generator's -& hence, the final Colloidal Silver production- fluctuations.
3 years ago: the wrong side of 55 -now, heading towards good health!

Offline Gene

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2020, 11:48:41 PM »
If you built yourself a current limiter, that should stay pretty much dead nuts over the whole run as long as there's enough headroom above cell voltage for it to adapt to changing cell voltage.

The current limiter in power supplies has never been uber accurate at small currents. Its there as protection so that if you're powering something and it "runs away" or shorts out, you don't turn it or the supply into a room heater that might even set something on fire.

As cfnisbet says, our usage is not "normal" by any means. If you're limiting to say 1 amp, what does a fraction of a milliamp mean? Right?  If you're limiting to 5-10ma, that drift is significant.

There is nothing wrong leaving it like this. If it stays OVER the target current by a little, just run the correct amount of time and add a bit more reducing agent and call it even.  For things that go into the body, nothing is an exact science so as long as all the IS is reduced to Colloidal Silver, you're good.  Whether you ingest 20PPM or 22-25PPM, it matters little though if you're processing cold, that could be an issue given you really don't want to go up over 21PPM or so as above this it will start precipitating out silver oxide which isn't good. If you're processing hot and adding the reducer at the beginning of the run, you're fine - just add a smidge more to compensate for any misgivings.  I usually do this anyway.  A little too much reducer does nothing bad.  Its sugar and a TINY amount of it to boot (unless you're using cinnamon tincture but the extra just makes it taste a bit more cinnamony -wink).

Offline gkar

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2020, 03:53:26 AM »
If you built yourself a current limiter, that should stay pretty much dead nuts over the whole run as long as there's enough headroom above cell voltage for it to adapt to changing cell voltage.

The current limiter in power supplies has never been uber accurate at small currents. Its there as protection so that if you're powering something and it "runs away" or shorts out, you don't turn it or the supply into a room heater that might even set something on fire.

As cfnisbet says, our usage is not "normal" by any means. If you're limiting to say 1 amp, what does a fraction of a milliamp mean? Right?  If you're limiting to 5-10ma, that drift is significant.

There is nothing wrong leaving it like this. If it stays OVER the target current by a little, just run the correct amount of time and add a bit more reducing agent and call it even.  For things that go into the body, nothing is an exact science so as long as all the IS is reduced to Colloidal Silver, you're good.  Whether you ingest 20PPM or 22-25PPM, it matters little though if you're processing cold, that could be an issue given you really don't want to go up over 21PPM or so as above this it will start precipitating out silver oxide which isn't good. If you're processing hot and adding the reducer at the beginning of the run, you're fine - just add a smidge more to compensate for any misgivings.  I usually do this anyway.  A little too much reducer does nothing bad.  Its sugar and a TINY amount of it to boot (unless you're using cinnamon tincture but the extra just makes it taste a bit more cinnamony -wink).
Would it be better to run the time slightly shorter, to minimise any possibility of going over the 21ppm threshhold? If so, does the creation of silver, into the solution occur at a steady rate? Or is it exponentially increased, over time?
The current limiter is a bought board, & the CC light did stay activated everytime I looked; which was every minute, or so. The VDC never went below ~16V.
Thanks for the thorough reply.

PS. I was going to create another thread, but will post the query here:
      What would be the maximum recommended mA for a 2mm silver anode, running cold, if using a mag. stirrer? Is it the same, as running a hot process?
Can't seem to find any info, on this.
3 years ago: the wrong side of 55 -now, heading towards good health!

Offline Gene

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2020, 05:01:54 AM »
I haven't tried it yet because I don't make 20PPM (try like 120PPM) so I'm not running cold but I wonder if you added the reducer at the beginning of the run, even if its cold whether or not, it'd at least reduce 4 or 5PPM of silver oxide during a 20PPM run so even if you went over a bit it wouldn't matter.

At least hot I use a 14 gauge silver wire and run 10ma at 150F.  Cold, I don't believe I ever went over 5ma but 5ma seemed to be OK.  If thats of any help to you.

With a 1oz bullion bar (I have one - just haven't got around to setting it up so I can use it) "hot", I bet you could run 15-20ma.  20ma would be nice.

BTW, just so its said, if you use a 1ozt bullion bar, assuming you'll get 80% useful life out of it (it'd probably start getting too thin/fragile to go much beyond this), it would be enough silver to make 1244 liters of 20PPM. Yeah, YEOW! And if you could push it to maybe 90%, about 1400 liters.

The rate of production follows the current. Its linear.

Offline imcool

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2020, 08:58:54 PM »
Hi,

During making my first batch yesterday, I noticed that the multimeter reading was constantly varying, by small amounts. Is this normal? Or should it have a stable mA reading?

My meter was fluctuating between ~3.17-3.6mA, during the production cycle. If it should remain absolutely stable, could the electrolyte be at fault? I read WGPeters stating that one of the functions of sodium carbonate is to assist with current control. I'm sure I made it according to specs, & amount: 10 drops for 0.5L.
Thanks
I use this and can limit current to any setting , marked in red


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Offline Gene

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2020, 03:07:10 AM »
If that thing has an accurate current limiter, it should be damn near rock solid. The problem is, current limiters for power supplies are there for protection (as in lets not french fry something due to too high a current because something in the circuit failed) so they're not overly good on the low end.

Also, potentiometers (the current set knob) do always have a little backlash so they could "drift" a little over time but it'd be a slow variance. Especially with a current limiter if that potentiometer isn't at least 10 turn, the amount you have to move it to cause a noticeable difference in current is about a gnats eyebrow hair especially if the high end current limit setting on that thing is in the amps.  Backlash and mechanical vibration could easily do this.

If 1 turn is 1 amp, that means to resolve 1ma, that'd be 1/1000th of a turn. See what I mean?

Its not your cell, nor electrolyte nor temperature, the phase of the moon,.. (wink) so don't start second guessing yourself.

Its almost always the simplest explanation.

Offline imcool

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2020, 01:24:08 PM »
If that thing has an accurate current limiter, it should be damn near rock solid. The problem is, current limiters for power supplies are there for protection (as in lets not french fry something due to too high a current because something in the circuit failed) so they're not overly good on the low end.

Also, potentiometers (the current set knob) do always have a little backlash so they could "drift" a little over time but it'd be a slow variance. Especially with a current limiter if that potentiometer isn't at least 10 turn, the amount you have to move it to cause a noticeable difference in current is about a gnats eyebrow hair especially if the high end current limit setting on that thing is in the amps.  Backlash and mechanical vibration could easily do this.

If 1 turn is 1 amp, that means to resolve 1ma, that'd be 1/1000th of a turn. See what I mean?

Its not your cell, nor electrolyte nor temperature, the phase of the moon,.. (wink) so don't start second guessing yourself.

Its almost always the simplest explanation.
https://www.amazon.ca/uxcell-Current-Ammeter-Circuit-Testing/dp/B07CN2G4GN
I guess then we need this too

Offline Gene

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Re: mA Current Variation
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2020, 11:04:58 PM »
I wouldn't sweat it too much. Just figure out what a reasonable average is for the run for current and go with that.

Do be aware that 21-22PPM is at 75F (about 23.9C).  Below this its less.  Even at 150F its only 40PPM but at the higher temp the reducer works quickly enough that you can do continuous to whatever PPM you want so the PPM of non-reduced silver oxide never gets close to 40PPM.

With a 12AWG (2mm is just a hair less in size), I'd certainly try 5ma. IIC, when I was making cold, thats what I used and had great results.

Just make sure the water in the cell is warm.  Microwave it until its getting to be almost too hot to the touch, do the run and if it starts feeling too cool, stop the run, microwave it again and start it back up to finish the run.

That looks VERY dark for Colloidal Silver. What PPM is that?