Author Topic: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?  (Read 1256 times)

Offline FromTheDen

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Likes: 18
How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« on: December 30, 2020, 04:40:52 PM »
There are several posts with a reference to this formula for calculating how much glucose to use:
     PPM * volume(ml) /16000

This formula yields 20 drops for 1 liter of 320ppm (320*1000/16000=20).

The resulting (diluted) colloidal silver has a metallic taste, indicating ionic content.

The quick start recipe for 320ppm suggests 15 drops for 250ml, which would be 60 drops for 1 liter. That would seem more reasonable.

The irrelevance of the formula becomes even more apparent when doing a calculation for a liter of 20ppm:
20*1000/16000=1.25 drops of glucose. The quick start recipe for 20ppm has 8-12 drops for 1 liter.

I suggest that the PPM * volume(ml) /16000 formula does not result in a sufficient amount of reducing agent. It might be adding notes to the relevant posts to dispel the potential for confusion (simple search on 16000).

Calculating the glucose reducer quantity for various concentrations might be better achieved by interpolating between the 20ppm & 320ppm recipes.

If I have misinterpreted somehow, please let me know.


Offline Gene

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1269
  • Likes: 91
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2020, 03:09:47 AM »
First off, that formula is for Karo, 50/50 diluted with alcohol, not glucose.  For glucose you'd need far less.

That formula came from Kephra.

For glucose, the formula is:

PPM * <liters> * 0.8335

with the result in milligrams of glucose.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using more.  More will have reduction happen more quickly for more glucose reducing groups being made available to find and rip the oxygen off the silver oxide particles.

But perhaps, if you're saying that you believe the formula to be in error, Kephra could chime in on this one.

Offline FromTheDen

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Likes: 18
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2020, 04:25:24 PM »
Thanks, Gene, my bad on the terminology. I meant 50/50 diluted Karo, not glucose.

I may be applying the formula incorrectly, but when I plug in the numbers the result is not enough Karo mix to fully reduce or match the quick start recipes.

Gene, you reminded me of a request I would like to have added to the Articles section: Something short & sweet on mixing Karo for a reducer--or at least an update to the "Making Colloidal Silver -- Part 2 - Production Techniques", which still specifies mixing Karo equally with distilled water. I quit using water diluted Karo because it kept going bad, and began using maltodextrin instead. It was only after several years of monitoring this forum that I stumbled across a post suggesting diluting Karo with vodka instead. This is a wonderful solution that should be clearly provided in a logical location.

Offline Gene

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1269
  • Likes: 91
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2020, 07:16:38 PM »
Yeah, Karo/vodka works amazingly well. You can leave a dropper bottle of it out on the kitchen table forever and it never evolves life.  Thats what I do.

This article addresses perhaps some of your questions:

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

If it doesn't take you to a post by PeterXXL he entitled

How to calculate how much of a reducing agent that is needed to reduce silver oxide (ionic silver) made from/during electrolysis.

From June 19, 2015, you may have to scroll forward or back some.  For me its the last post on page 2 of the thread.

There is a wealth of knowledge here.  The sub-par search facility makes it difficult to find at times (sigh).

Offline FromTheDen

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Likes: 18
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2021, 03:57:10 AM »
Thanks, Gene, your link took me right to PeterXXL's excellent article.

Since I can gather the correct amount of diluted Karo from the quick-start recipe, I am less concerned about how much to use than I am about figuring out how I could be misinterpreting the general formula for calculating how much to use: PPM * volume(ml) /16000. It just seems to indicate way too little diluted Karo. And that formula is in a number of posts.

My concern is that if I am confused, perhaps others are too.

On another tangent, I have brewed gallons of 320ppm using maltodextrin as a reducer, and I just stumbled across a concern Kephra expressed that maltodextrin may not be the best choice for 320ppm because it has such a strong capping affinity that it may beat out gelatin and result in a less stable solution. Ack! All the more reason to get the Karo quantity nailed down & use vodka to dilute it.


Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7707
  • Likes: 122
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2021, 02:03:23 PM »
Quote
Since I can gather the correct amount of diluted Karo from the quick-start recipe, I am less concerned about how much to use than I am about figuring out how I could be misinterpreting the general formula for calculating how much to use: PPM * volume(ml) /16000. It just seems to indicate way too little diluted Karo. And that formula is in a number of posts.
I am skeptical of the formula.  Is the result in grams, milligrams, or ml of Karo. 
Also, I'm not sure anymore of the actual composition of Karo.

Here's the latest analysis I found:
Quote from: https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evj.12826
Analysis of the corn syrup (Karo Light Corn Syrup)a using the following method (Longland, personal communication) found it to contain 356.3 mg/mL of maltose and glucose combined ...
But this analysis does not agree with the label on the Karo which claims 120 calories per 30 ml of Karo.
From the analysis above, Karo would have only 43 calories per 30ml, instead of 120.  Any type of sugar has 4 calories per gram of solid weight.
IE: 30 ml of KARO * .356 gr/ml = 10.6 grams combined sugar.  <-- by the veterinary analysis
30 ml 0f Karo = 120 calories = 30 grams of combined sugar <-- by the label.

Obviously, these numbers do not agree.  Also, we do not know the weight of 30ml of Karo (we could weigh it), so we do not know how much water there is in it.  This would suggest that there is less sugar per ml.  One of these numbers or both are incorrect. 

Then there is the problem of the ratio of glucose to maltose.  When making a syrup, two different kinds of sugars have to be used to keep the syrup from crystallizing.  Normally, the ratio would be half and half by molecular weights.  That is one molecule of glucose and one molecule of maltose.  Assuming the one to one ratio of molecules, and that a molecule of maltose weighs twice as much as a molecule of glucose, then there would be a one to two ratio of glucose to maltose by weight.

The point is that there is not enough solid data to calculate the amount of Karo based on ppm and volume.  If anything, the formula result is too low.  Basing the formula on the veterinary analysis would be safer.




« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 02:08:27 PM by kephra »
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Gene

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1269
  • Likes: 91
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2021, 09:02:22 PM »
I did not originate that PPM * ml / 16000 formula.

What I was remembering is that it came from Kephra but for some reason (sub-par search facility?) I can't find it the original post now.

If it didn't come from someone I trusted, I would not have said anything.

I see in this post that cfnisbet is reiterating the same formula though no clue where he found it.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=4965.msg42718#msg42718

I'm going to keep searching because for sure I didn't invent that formula.

Perhaps Karo has changed over time. Labels lie all the time. Who checks them? Right?

I'm wondering though.  Could we make our own "karo" by using glucose and maltodextrin so we know exactly how much there is?

Its been said that maltodextrin by itself isn't recommended for making higher PPM's.  I've had no issue up to the 120PPM I make normally but perhaps over that whats been stated happens (I have no way to verify it).

I like how clear the resulting Colloidal Silver comes out using maltodextrin though but 50/50 karo is much easier.  But if we can't figure out what the correct ratio of dextrose to maltose to water is anymore, unless you use 2-3x I guess, Karo may be a bad choice these days.


Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7707
  • Likes: 122
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2021, 12:12:09 AM »
I searched the original forum files, and did not find the source.
Personally, I use 8 times the amount that formula gives.  So for a 1 liter batch of 40 ppm, I use 20 drops approximately, and it works perfectly every time. 
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Gene

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1269
  • Likes: 91
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2021, 04:21:34 AM »
I think I found the source and it was from you, Bill.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3068.msg25484#msg25484

In your post dated March 2, 2016, you said...

-----------------------
Use the appropriate amount of reducing agent (based on water volume and ppm) IE: 4 to 5 drops diluted corn syrup for 1 cup of 320 ppm colloidal silver (ppm*milliliters/16000).
-----------------------

I knew I didn't "invent" this and given you were suggesting using 4-5 drops of diluted corn syrup for 250ml of 320PPM, if you used 5 drops, that'd be 16000.

And then here in your quickstart guide, which curiously is April 18, 2012 the amount stated is different.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=758.0

For a 250ml batch of 320PPM you suggest 15 drops of 50:50 diluted karo. This would be a divisor of 5333.

If your current wisdom is a divisor of 2000 given the confusion as to exactly what the makeup of Karo is, the information on the forum needs to be updated.  Lots of people use Karo, including me.

In Bell Labs, we used to call it Best Current Practices.  Things change over time and we will adapt and make changes and update our procedures as needed but today, this is the best way we know how...

For me, making 900ml batches (most that fits in a 1 quart mason jar as 1 quart is to the very top of the rim which seems stupid to me - it should be to the ring at the bottom of the neck but it isn't) at 120PPM, this would dictate needing 54 drops (about 2.7ml).  So half a teaspoon plus maybe half an eye dropper more for good measure.

It matters little to me and others I'm sure.  We all just want to get it right.

Your thoughts?

Offline kephra

  • The older I get, the better I was
  • Administrator
  • Participant
  • *****
  • Posts: 7707
  • Likes: 122
  • Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2021, 02:11:06 PM »
Quote
I think I found the source and it was from you, Bill.
It may have been, but where did I get it?  If I had derived it, I would have shown the math, as I did for the derivation of 15ma-mins for the electrolysis.

What do you think the formula recomendation should be?



Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline FromTheDen

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Likes: 18
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2021, 06:24:42 PM »
I assume people have successfully been making 320ppm with the quick start recommendation of 15 drops of diluted Karo/250ml, which would be 60 drops for 1 liter.

Extrapolating from the 20ppm quick start recipe, 320ppm would require 16*2-3 or 32-48 drops/250ml (128-192 drops/liter).

I have long used maltodextrin (4.275g/l from the calculator spreadsheet)--not realizing it could be beating out the gelatin in capping and being less stable. Shelf-wise it was plenty stable, but perhaps not so much in the stomach.

I just decided to try Karo again, forgot about the quick start recipe and went with the 20 drops suggested by 320*1000/16000. The result was plating on my beaker & a metallic taste with the result--both evidences of insufficient reducer.

From the 20ppm extrapolation, 15 drops/250ml would seem to be an absolute minimum for 320ppm, with twice that amount being a good possibility.

What results have people had with 15 drops diluted Karo for 250ml of gelatin capped 320ppm?

Offline nix2p

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 626
  • Likes: 8
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2021, 06:53:41 PM »
Quoting an old post:

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3971.msg33749#msg33749


The issue with heat is because you are making 40 ppm, which exceeds the solubility of silver oxides.  Heat raises the solubility of the ionic silver.  As it cools though, it starts to precipitate which is what causes the trouble.
 I have made a lot of 20 ppm cold without any problems.  But as you go higher in ppm, you must reduce the silver faster than it is generated to prevent it from precipitating.  Also, as you go higher in ppm, you need stronger capping agents.  Maltodextrin is a better capping agent than Karo, and gelatin is better than Maltodextrin.

"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline FromTheDen

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Likes: 18
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2021, 07:45:01 PM »
@nix2p: Since the operating temp was near boiling, heat was not the problem. Gelatin was used for capping. There was no precipitate. When there is beaker silvering Kephra suggests that there is not enough Karo (https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=3955.msg42422#msg42422). A metallic taste indicates ionic (unreduced) content, also pointing to not enough Karo. It is clear that 20 drops of diluted Karo for 1 liter of 320ppm is not sufficient. 60 drops may be enough, 120 might be better. The good news is too much won't hurt anything.

The remaining question is how much diluted Karo are people using to completely reduce 320ppm Colloidal Silver?

Offline nix2p

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 626
  • Likes: 8
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2021, 08:20:17 PM »
@ FromTheDen;

Quoting Kephra:

Quote
Then there is the problem of the ratio of glucose to maltose.  When making a syrup,

two different kinds of sugars have to be used to keep the syrup from crystallizing.


..."Avoidable becomes more unavoidable"; and chicken soup cannot be done with "other stuff"/

ingrediencies'.


To obtain correct facts i believe we need ingrediencies (from sources we trust) and make our own Karo-

Light-syrup. Gets even slimmer of a chance; who is going to do it!

Nix 


"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline Gene

  • Expert
  • Participant
  • ***
  • Posts: 1269
  • Likes: 91
Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2021, 09:22:37 PM »
And that was along the lines of my question. Can we "make" a standardized glucose/maltodextrin reducing agent that works well for everything from 20PPM all the way up to 320PPM?

For making 80PPM naked (I always keep a quart around for topical and stomach problems), I'll still use straight maltodextrin as its a strong stabilizer but for anything else I'd be gel-capping it and as such, the reducer only has to reduce well since the gelatine works as the stabilizer.

And I process normally at 150F so length of time to reduce becomes a non-issue as long as I add the reducer at the beginning of the run.  It takes me at 10ma about an hour to build up a 40PPM level (heading towards the normal 120PPM I make) and at that temp, there ain't a reducer we'd use that wouldn't get the job done in time.

The issue is complete reduction with enough guard-band so that no matter what happens, its more than enough.