Author Topic: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?  (Read 1257 times)

Offline nix2p

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 06:12:02 PM »

At present we are concern with two types of Colloidal Silver:

1). Colloidal Silver - for EXTERIOR use;

2). Colloidal Silver for DRINKING - CAPPED.



As mentioned before by Kephra, and others:

a). Glucose, Maltose, Corn Syrup, Maltodextrin, Cinnamon Extract, And Gelatin all cap silver.  Glucose is weakest, and Gelatin is the strongest, because it is the largest molecule in the list.

---------------------------
Gelatin has the added advantage in that it resists stomach acids because protein digestion is mainly done in the small intestine. And that test was done.

b). Gelatin holds particles in suspension.  So you might be making a lot of silver oxide particles and not seeing it because of the gelatin holding it in suspension.

BUT,

c). somewhere on these threads, Kephra is saying: "I'm not satisfied with it yet". And I believe was referring to Karo syrup - mostly, (I think)!

d). Looking at "a)." and from "some" to complete, or "full extent", these ingrediencies are CAPPING and to what extent if OVER the "measured/concluded amount", are TO BE added? Yes, we are talking about interaction - in actual usage.

In the end, what do I know! Would "d).", be a good starting point?

Regards

Nix
"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline Gene

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 07:27:30 PM »
Well, other than gelatine, I wouldn't consider the others "capping agents". They're reducers and depending on their makeup, good average or bad STABILIZERS (which is not the same thing - at least what I believe anyway).

We need a good reducer where we can, with a formula, accurately compute the minimum needed and then maybe go 50-100% over this, maybe 200% even to not only make sure it reduces all the silver oxide but also, does it quickly enough.  As I recall being said, excess reducer helps to reduce silver oxide faster simply because there's more of it so the distribution in the DW is higher so those reducer molecules find silver oxide particles to reduce that much more quickly.  Kind of makes sense to me.

The big question is, given Karo is so variable, like maltodextrin, where we do have an equation that works for all DE equivalents of maltodextrin, can we come up with an accurate formula for Karo or is it simply too variable where perhaps the chemical analysis as stated on the label is pure fiction?  If we can't, yeah, we can use 4-8x the amount needed but given we know we can make aqueous solutions of sugars at 50/50 water/alcohol which keeps them from ever evolving life, is there perhaps a different mix we could use that we make ourselves - glucose + maltodextrin + DW + alcohol perhaps that we'd always know the exact amount to use?  And yeah, with maltodextrin, since it varies all over the place, you'd need more which from whats been said becomes contentious with 320PPM for some reason, maybe a 30/30/40 (glucose, maltodextrin, water+alcohol) mix might be a better homebrew "Karo".  That was kind of my thinking but its been a long time since I've been in a chemistry lab so I'd yield to others who would be more familiar with things like this.

I do know that when I do make 80PPM "naked", I use maltodextrin straight as thats a good stabilizer and Colloidal Silver made with it seems not to go bad (I've had karo made go bad and this seems to be the current wisdom - its NOT a good stabilizer over 20PPM).

Offline nix2p

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2021, 05:51:41 PM »

Let me ask you all;

I'm making a ratio of 75% colloidal Silver and 25% drinking alcohol

to be used as a disinfectant... but with certain alcohols, (drinking type),

it turns darker orange, (not with grain, that 150 proof, forgot the name of it!)


Thanks ahead

"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline Gene

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2021, 07:48:08 PM »
I think you mean that 190 proof Everclear.

The azeotropic ratio for ethanol is 95% meaning they can't get the last 5% water out of it no matter how hard they distill it.  They can by chemical means but that renders it non-ingestible.

Proof is 2x percentage alcohol so 95% = 190 proof.

As for the color change, I have no clue. Perhaps someone else could chime in on this one.

Offline nix2p

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2021, 09:05:25 PM »
@Gene;
151 proof Everclear
"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline FromTheDen

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2021, 04:34:00 PM »
I made a batch of 320ppm gelatin capped (1 tsp/liter) with 120 drops (6ml) of diluted Karo. There was no silvering on the beaker and the result was completely tasteless. 

Then I tried a small batch with the quick start recipe for 320ppm with 15 drops/250ml. There was no noticeable silvering of the beaker, but there was a definite metallic taste--not enough reducer!

That would make the minimum general formula: drops diluted Karo = ppm*ml/2500.

Because of the unknown composition of Karo and potential variability, a more conservative formula (as derived by Gene from Kephra's post) would be:
     Drops diluted Karo = ppm*ml/2000 .

The quick start recipe lists 2-3 drops diluted Karo for 20ppm. This latter formula gives 2.5 drops. Nice!

Following the conservative formula, 250ml of 320ppm would require 40 drops of diluted Karo.

I suggest updating the quick start recipe for 320ppm to use 30-40 drops of diluted Karo for 250ml.

Mixing Karo with vodka is not prominently posted. Making reducing agent is so central, it deserves a short pinned article:
  • Mix Light Karo syrup 50/50 with vodka for a stable over time reducing agent. Distilled water can also be used for dilution, but, even if refrigerated, Karo diluted with distilled water will grow things over time (think Petri dish).
  • All recipes on this forum referring to corn syrup are referencing this 50/50 diluted version of corn syrup.
  • The amount of required corn syrup reducer can be calculated with this formula (desired volume in milliliters):
         Drops diluted Karo = ppm*ml/2000
Make sense?


Offline kephra

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2021, 05:36:11 PM »
I agree.  I changed it to 40 drops in the quick start.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline Josie29

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2021, 06:30:12 PM »
I am not understanding this new position regarding 40 drops Karo reducing agent (RA) in 250 ml 320 ppm Colloidal Silver.

I have successfully used 5 drops RA up to this point. Good clarity; no metallic taste; no silvering of the container noticeable (until more than one batch made without cleaning the beaker with H2O2).

Please provide a clear explanation.

Offline Josie29

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2021, 09:48:01 PM »
My question wasn't really a rhetorical question.

Other than 'because it fits the equation,' could someone explain why an 8 fold increase in Karo reducing agent is now recommended?

Offline Gene

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2021, 12:44:32 AM »
Go back to the beginning of this topic and read the first post from Kephra. Thats where the change came from and Kephra explained it.

The numbers don't add up and Kephra is being cautious which is something we should all be cognizant of.

Karo is organic. Who knows when the last time the manufacturer updated their label was or if they even test batches to verify the analysis (I'm thinking not). Who knows whether the analysis on the label was ever correct?  A lot of times, manufacturers are trusted in what they say and nobody in our government checks. With a LOT of things. Who knows, if they're not testing each batch, what the variability is for the product from batch to batch? They can't be getting all the corn they use to produce it from the same place and even if they do, crops vary from year to year or even sometimes from crop to crop.

We basically know nothing other than what the label says but as Kephra points out, when you go through the analysis, something does not compute.

Glucose is perhaps the only reducing sugar we can nail dead on because glucose is glucose and if its glucose its always glucose and never varies and the science works. Karo? Maltodextrin? Cinnamon extract and others? Who knows?

For sure with Maltodextrin, given it varies based on dextrose equivalency (if you know the DE you could compute it exactly), where the stuff available in the US anyway is mixed bag where there is no stated DE number, the ONLY thing you can do is compute how much for the worst case DE number (fewest reducing groups, longest sugar molecules) and go with it knowing it will never be this bad so you're safe. You can't ascertain anything else.

Yup, clear as mud.

Our goal here is to use ENOUGH reducer to guarantee ALL the silver oxide is converted to colloidal form, if even that means we have to use an excess of the reducer to guarantee this.  Sadly, because accurate chemical analysis's of reducers other than glucose aren't really available all we can do is figure out what enough is and go with it, now not needing to cross our fingers.

Also, for your example, 320PPM, 250ml where you're using 5 drops, do you think, if you lucked out and got a "good" batch of Karo that you'd be able to tell if you were able to reduce 310PPM of silver oxide with it? Do you actually think that when you dilute that down to 20PPM you'd even notice a difference?  That'd be 0.625PPM at 20PPM dilution unreduced silver oxide.  What about 20PPM (300PPM reduction) which would be 1.25PPM silver oxide?  I kind of doubt it.

Taste is a gross indicator that you're close, not dead on.  And then too, everyone's sense of taste is different and worse yet, taking things like Asprin will reduce your senses sensitivity (including taste) by at least 20% (proven). Something to think about.

Plus, for having an excess of reducer, the density of sugar molecules is greater meaning there are more reducing groups near each silver particle which guarantees a better chance of reduction and also faster reduction because the reducing sugar molecules don't have as far to travel to find a silver oxide particle to reduce or the silver oxide particles don't have as far to go to bump into a reducing sugar molecule.

This is all seat of the pants with as much science as we can wrap around it.  Given the nature of the beast, it will never be exact so you go with extra to guarantee you're good no matter what and call it even.

More reducer never hurts and with Karo, you'd be hard-pressed to taste anything.  Maltodextrin, given how much we have to use to guarantee that a worst case will still reduce all the silver oxide particles you will potentially taste.  Cinnamon? Absolutely! Perhaps others.

And at least for sure, with cinnamon extract, given the distinct flavor, it may mask an incomplete reduction if you don't use enough.

Like I said, clear as mud.  A lot of this is a guideline, not an absolute but all you can do is the best you can and go a little extra to cover things and call it even.

Offline Josie29

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2021, 06:45:02 PM »
Thank you Gene.

Read your response; re-read the entire topic.

I get it I think!  Karo sources plus purity not really known. Variation in taste buds may 'hide' any metallic taste if Colloidal Silver does not fully reduce. Increase in quantity of Karo does not hurt the final Colloidal Silver product.

Sort of a CYA measure!

[In my case I have used the same Karo bottle for a long, long time. Perhaps this lends to the consistency of my product!?!]

Offline Gene

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2021, 11:12:49 PM »
You get it!

This is all seat of the pants with as much science as we can wrap around it.  You do the best you can and yup, CYA.  As I said, for glucose and maltodextrin if you can get single DE rated stuff (for sure in Europe but difficult in the US it seems), the science is absolute.  For pretty much everything else though...

Nothing is ever black and white! NEVER!

If you find a happy medium that works well for you where you're convinced you're getting damn near 100% reduction, stick with it.  A pint bottle of karo will last a lifetime and a half even at the higher amounts.

And no, there's no harm in extra reducer. It just stays sugar because it has nothing to reduce and doesn't harm anything.

Offline nix2p

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2021, 03:37:58 PM »
Go back to the beginning of this topic and read the first post from Kephra. Thats where the change came from and Kephra explained it.

The numbers don't add up and Kephra is being cautious which is something we should all be cognizant of.
...
More reducer never hurts and with Karo, you'd be hard-pressed to taste anything.  Maltodextrin, given how much we have to use to guarantee that a worst case will still reduce all the silver oxide particles you will potentially taste.  Cinnamon? Absolutely! Perhaps others.

And at least for sure, with cinnamon extract, given the distinct flavor, it may mask an incomplete reduction if you don't use enough.


Back some years ego, PeterXXL, did some tests on capping agents, (I believe was in 2016),

however those results I have not being able to locate, or perhaps were never posted!

... Thank you Gene for "demystifying", some of the mechanics. And on another note,

LM317LT, is working perfectly, (subject from another thread, and would not have if you

have not described to some of us having limited knowledge of electronic processes). I was

able to incorporate a potentiometer with an exterior knob, a controlling knob to adjust

5PPM to 60 PPM output.

Thanks again,

Nix




"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman

Offline Gene

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2021, 07:39:11 PM »
You mean 5-60 milliamps, not PPM, right?

With the LM317LT, the spec says it works down to about 2.5ma so you could potentially go lower, perhaps even below that because thats a worst case (maximum ground pin current - a.k.a quiescent current - a.k.a operating current - what it consumes itself to operate). You might even be able to push it under 2ma but it'd take days to make any quantity of Colloidal Silver significantly greater than 20PPM for doing so.

With the LM317LT current limiter topology, that operating current flows through the load so the lower limit is what the minimum operating current for the part you have in your hand actually is (there's a "process spread" in manufacturing which can be as bad as +/-30% so given the quiescent current has to be the +30% or perhaps a bit more for safe area than a typical part you can see that you could potentially get well below this with a part leaning towards the lower end).  But again, why would you want such low currents?  Just because you can doesn't always mean its useful - just that you have some wiggle room on the low end which is never a bad thing.

Thanks for the kudos but its really not necessary.  We're all here to help/assist/guide each other and we all do.

Pray tell what would you be using 60ma for?  That'd be a helluva silver anode that would required for that current (wink).  You're not making bathtubs full, are you? (hahahaha).

Oh, and if you choose a potentiometer resistance that sets the top end to say 25-30ma, you're precision in setting a current doubles from that of 60ma because now moving as far as you move to increase or decrease the current by 1m for the 60ma pot, with the 30ma one you'd be moving 0.5ma so you get greater accuracy. Think about it.  It makes sense.

https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

That wouldn't be the link for the PeterXXL post you were talking about, would it?

I saved that one for obvious reasons a while ago.

Sometimes with the search facility, if you're looking for a multi-word match and you want it to be a b c, put it in quotes "a b c" and the search will only look for that string exactly.  That does help at times find exactly what you're looking for quickly and sometimes, at a minimum, helps to weed down the matches to something you can skip through quickly.

Offline nix2p

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Re: How much (diluted) corn syrup reducer?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2021, 10:11:47 PM »
You mean 5-60 milliamps, not PPM, right?

Yes, thank you, Gene, (post must have been visited by a 'screwup ferry' again).

Quote
https://www.cgcsforum.org/index.php?topic=2546.msg21231#msg21231

That wouldn't be the link for the PeterXXL post you were talking about, would it?

Yes, that's the one.
-------------------------
 
 I checked today on Youtube and Mark Brusher's post, on how to make it, (colloidal silver),

yup, is still there:

#386 Ionic & Colloidal Silver, Definitive Guide To Making

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur-oP3bmbc 

Nix
"I am too old to die young, and too young to grow up"!
Marty Feldman